115. Imperfect Conversations: A Deep Dive into Authenticity and Branding with"Favazza"

This fictional branding and non-fictional Now I'm assuming the personal self, but then you also have your professional self. How do you choose when to embrace that non-fiction versus your?

fiction. Well, I'm telling you, as an individual, you don't ever fictionally brand yourself. I don't try to come off better than I am. I embrace who I am.

What are you talking about? Everybody does like world's best-selling author Like. How many are there?

Well, exactly, and that's where I go.

Number one You're listening to a podcast that encourages you to embrace your vulnerabilities and authentic self. This is your transformation station and this is your host, greg Favazza.

DP, welcome to your transformation station.

How you doing. Oh, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me on Greg. Do you prefer Greg or Gregory?

I appreciate you asking Greg's fine.

Okay. Well, it's important because if you're building a personal brand, you need to literally defend your brand name every single day. So if you're Greg, I want to make sure that I'm not calling you Gregory.

Geez, I mean, that's a good point to make, like I've always Anything that requires like my name on paper. I've always done Gregory Favazza, but when I'm talking with somebody I just prefer Greg and I don't know, is there any psychology behind that? Is there any reason that I should be taking that into consideration?

Well, I don't know if there's any psychology, but from a branding perspective, gregory is a lawyer, greg is a guy sitting next to you having a beer. So which do you want to be perceived as? You know, literally, I had this conversation. A friend of mine was having a baby and they said I'm thinking of calling him Charlie. And I said well, you know, you might not want to do that, because if Charlie, your cute little boy, becomes a judge, he might want to be known as Charles, and so my advice to you would be give him the full name Charles and he can be called Charlie by everybody, and he can even have that on his business card if he elects to. But by calling himself Charles, he at least has that opportunity to be elevated as a brand, as a personal brand, if you will, and you can elect to become something less than that, and even that story becomes a great branding story, which is yes, my full name is Gregory, but you can call me Greg. Why? Because we're buddies and we just met. Isn't that a real nice, warm, intimate, friendly story that may be perfectly reflective of the personal brand that you actually are?

Wow, like I never took it in that consideration, but I've through like TV shows, through like little examples doing my reports and online classes. There'll be, like Greg has such and such, or my my uncle Greg. Like it just sounds like a shitty name, like when you say it like that, but when you look at it like Gregory, yes.

Well, like the old superstar Hollywood actor Gregory Peck. Ah, yes, One of the reasons that I don't even know if that's his real name. It could be a Hollywood name. But look at the structure of the name Greg Gore Wreath, three syllables. Peck is a single syllable. It's designed to be rhythmically and poetically interesting. Gregory Peck. Peck is manly, it's like a punch in the face, but Gregory is sophisticated. So if I'm looking at the name Gregory Peck and getting a brand feeling from it, oh, he's a sophisticated punch in the face, which is exactly the kind of actor he was, which was yes, I can be very suave and debonair, but push comes to shove. I'm the army guy on Pork Chop Hill that's facing the hordes of Koreans or Chinese coming up to try to kill us. And, by the way, that is one of his self produced films Pork Chop Hill. So, Gregory Peck. In that case he was more Peck than Gregory.

Hell, yeah, no, that's awesome. So how long have you been doing anything with the audio business? Because how we're having this conversation, you flow naturally like you can just hit it. So how long you've been doing this?

Well, my podcast, the nonfiction brand podcast, is on episode 224, I think, this coming week, which is we're recording the first week of September 2023. And actually this leads into a huge recommendation, which is, if you want to be a better public speaker, do a podcast and edit it yourself. Why? Because you will hear every um, every well, every like that you do, and you'll become so sensitive to them that you'll do what I do, which is, I'm not afraid to have a pause If I'm thinking about something, rather than fill it with the um like well, the second. You can get rid of those things. You see more authoritative, you sound better and consequently, people respect you more or pay more attention to you or assign you more authority, and that's exactly what you should be doing. So long winded answer to your question, but the answer is well, it didn't hurt that I have a degree in theater and I was an on camera actor and a voiceover person and stuff like that for years, but the thing that really made me a better speaker, presenter, talk, networker even, is doing a podcast and editing it myself, Because, my God, do you know how painful it is to cut out somewhere around 100 ums in an episode?

I've dealt with that and I spent hours and I got to the point where if it's happening, I'm just gonna let it happen, and that's something that I need to adjust on the spot as time progresses. I mean as a leader, when we are giving a public speech, there's no moment to edit what we just say, it's just what we have. We have to go with what we're feeling and let it flow, and it flows how it's supposed to. Then you were ready for that point, but if it doesn't, then you still need to work on yourself.

Yeah, and, face to face, having those type of human cues is fine Everyone's going to give you the benefit of the doubt. But when it comes to like a podcast, people don't put up with crappy sounding podcasts. They'll put up with crappy video if the content's good. But I don't know about you, but I've listened to a podcast that sound like it was recorded in an air stream trailer with all sorts of reverb and bounce and reflections, and I can't stand it so I'll just turn it off. So, when it comes to a podcast, you really need to clean things up. And, by the way, I have a pro tip for you Beautiful, if you want a super easy way to cut the ums just the ums out of your podcast Descript I don't know if you know Descriptcom, yes, okay, they have a remove filler words feature which, for the free level and I'm so cheap, I only do the free level, sorry you can remove. It will remove UMS. And the cool thing is you upload your MP3 file. It does a transcript of everything. It can then show you exactly how many UMS you have and you'll be amazed, between you and your guest, how many UMS are created. And it has a feature where it will literally cut the UMS out, but you can set it so it leaves the gap. So my pro tip for you is one usedescriptcom to identify the UMS, delete them, but leave the gap. Mine the gap. Leave the gap in, because if you don't leave the gap in, it cuts the UMS out, and that UMS is typically done on a transition phrase, like if we're talking about what we're gonna do later today. So I thought we could go to the zoo and maybe get something to eat afterwards. If you take out that UMS and you literally truncate the space between the two phrases, I thought we could go to the zoo and get a bite to eat. Sometimes sounds good, but a lot of times you want that. I thought we could go to the zoo and then we could get a bite to eat. Leaving the gap in there is a very human thing to do, and it doesn't feel like it was cut out by AI, like there's some audio AI tools out there now that can do this stuff. Every time I use them, it sounds like it was cut out by a robot, because that's exactly what it is.

Yes, it's referred as the pregnant pause. I had a voiceover guy come on I think it's episode 12 with Jim McCarthy, and he emphasized that moment of silence and how it builds up anticipation of what's going to come next and along with a lot of try not to say. You said so. I'm like why is that registering in my head all of a sudden? But I think it's with a couple radio hosts Howard Stern, they would do that pregnant pause and then also some crazy ass theatrics that would lead you and wanted to know what's next.

So that's that's been brought it up. Well, exactly, yeah, and when I do a podcast, when I'm editing a podcast, I'm listening like a musician, not like I don't know a robot that's just looking for perfection. I don't want perfection, I want performance and that's key. Like, if you ask me about modern pop music, I'll say it's too perfect, it feels like it's been polished and steel wool down to absolute sheen and that's not the type of music I want to listen to. I like who's your audience? Are they musicians? No, no, my audience for the nonfiction brand is just anybody who's interested in developing a brand for their small business or themselves. We talk a lot, a lot, about personal branding, because that is a huge thing and, frankly, if you're not personally branding yourself right now, you're in trouble, because the only thing that separates us from the coming AI overlords that are gonna take up a whole ton of jobs is the fact that we are humans and we have an innate sense of humanity and what makes things warm, emotional, interesting and engaging. That, frankly, ai is gonna have a lot of trouble with for a period of time. Right now, the only reason to hire me to do anything instead of hiring AI to at least give you a rough draft that you then polish, is the fact that, oh, I like him, I like the way he thinks, I like the way he provokes me to think differently about what I'm talking about or what I'm trying to market or brand for myself and by leaning into your humanity. Frankly, it's the only way to fight the coming AI overlords that are already here.

Let's backtrack. You said lane into the humanity of being human, but you're cutting out all the ums and us, like I get that, but wouldn't you wanna embrace that authenticity of the conversation, cause wait, we're-.

There's still plenty.

Yes, yeah, there's still plenty of Cause we gotta take the perspective of who's listening, and they wanna know that you are humanized, that you do have flaws and mistakes, that you can be relatable.

Believe me, you're still gonna have plenty of cues that make you relatable in all stuff and all that stuff witness the fact that I just kind of mangled a sense. Yeah, you did, there you go, bring it out. You know, the other thing is the crosstalk. We had a little bit of crosstalk going in. I leave the crosstalk in because that indicates that, wow, this conversation is exciting, so much so that both people are trying to get in on the conversation, and that's the way people talk. We don't talk like A talks pause, b talks, a talks, pause, b talks. No, we A is on top of B, b blah, blah, blah, blah, and that creates excitement and that kind of human imperfection I talk about when talking about music. Let's face it, I would rather hear a blues band in a bar that's kind of really having fun and making a lot of not mistakes, but choices that are not perfect choices, than listen to the modern pop music which is just so over polished.

Whiskey and Coke.

Yeah yeah. There you go Exactly I don't know if you are, if you listen to the music of Billie Eilish and her brother Phineas, who was her main producer but they go through and they do what's called a composite. They do multiple takes and then they listen to the exact perfect word from take one, put that in there, but they like the way they said the second word from take 15, so they put that in there and the whole thing not a single part of it is through composed or through performed. And through composing is when you compose not verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus out. But through composing is like the work that Stephen Sondheim did in his musical productions it goes all the way through and it's performed top to tail and complete with mistakes, cause sometimes those mistakes are the thing that makes it.

I mean, I used to do that. That takes a lot of effort and time and I'm a perfectionist, so it's dangerous for me to go down the path that you're walking. As far as creating the perfect audio cause, that could take days, oh, and I don't do that.

Believe me when I say take out the ums, I'm not saying make it perfect, cause you listen to any of my podcasts, the noise in the background, the train. Yeah, well, exactly, if there's something going on my dogs are barking, okay, you know, I do everything possible to try to minimize that possibility. But if it is like, if my dogs start barking on an important point that my guest is making, am I gonna get rid of the important point my guest is making because the dogs are barking? No, I might make a comment about oh, shut up guys. And that would be perfectly human because we're all faced with that situation. It's like that kid that walked in on the dad as he's on a news program and I don't know you remember that meme a British guy, I think I'm BBC News or something like that where he's got this very serious conversation going on about some kind of global situation and his little daughter comes walking in da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da, and you go. And it was charming Because, oh my God, I've been there where I'm trying to make a really professional point and then I realize, oh, I've got something in my teeth. You know that kind of I'm human, which, by the way, ai can't do. They can't ever be human. And but the funny thing is, in the future and this is a prediction in the future, ai will do perfectly imperfect things to try to be more human in its responses. And that's the scary interesting thing, I believe that.

So, like we touched on a lot of good points, you know, with understanding the human aspect of virtual lifestyles, I mean what would lead for a leadership standpoint perspective. How can they, what things can they do to apply to remember that sense that you're talking to somebody that's in their own home, that they have a world there, they're not inside the organization?

Well, one of the things that a lot of people do and a lot of brands do this as well they identify a single person that they're talking to or a single audience member. Call it an avatar. A lot of brands will call it their brand avatar, when, if you're a company that makes fishing equipment, you have in your head an actual picture of the perfect buyer of your product or service and then you act like you're addressing them in everything you do. You know you can see this all the time with brands that are very clearly indicating who their audience is and they play to that audience. That's a really powerful way to do it, because then you're speaking, the words you choose are predicated on the person you think you're talking to. You know, if you're Gregory and you're talking to an audience of post-graduate doctoral candidates, you're gonna use different words than if you're Greg talking to a guy on the deck of a bass boat, as you're out there trying to catch those big old lunkers and bring them in. You got a bass boat? No, I don't, but I'm in Wisconsin. I'm in Wisconsin, the land of 15,000 lakes. Thank you very much, minnesota.

No, I grew up on a boat so I love going out into the water. We would actually go boating on the Mississippi. My parents would like to just dock it, sit on the beach. The water's nasty, I'm not going to lie. The Mississippi's really gross. But I would enjoy that as something for the family growing up and one of the things that we would do is go tubing and stuff. But other than that it was a good bonding experience out of all the other crazy shit Absolutely.

And by the way, tubing, that's a Greg thing, not a Gregory thing. Gregory's on the golf course.

I see what you're saying. It's almost like the post version and the future version.

And it's also very much related to the brand that you are, because I teach, or the thing I talk about ad nauseam, is what I call nonfiction branding, and there's a whole story with how I came up with that which I won't go into, but let's suffice to say that a nonfiction brand isn't making things up, isn't fronting, isn't pretending, it's embracing the completely true, completely you person and brand that you are. So, for example, if we were working together on your personal brand and you said well, you know, I kind of like to use Gregory because I want people to be a little bit more respectful or impressed by who I am, I go. That's a mistake, dude, you're a Greg. I hate to say it, you're a Greg.

The same way. Go fuck yourself.

You know and it's, and that's not a bad thing. But a lot of people feel like, well, but I have to wear a tie and a blue blazer and stuff like that, and it's like, no, you don't Not anymore. There was a time. You know, if you become a senator, yeah, there's a dress code for the floor of the Senate in Washington, but most places there is no more dress code. There is a, you know, obviously you got to wear shoes and shirts or you get no service. But there is no yeah, there is no expectation, or very little expectation, and you can. You can do whatever you want. So the question is if the thing you want to do is that truly reflective of who you are. Me, I hate neckties. If I go to someplace where a necktie is expected, I'll find a way not to wear one, or I'll forget to bring one. You know I'll quote forget, yeah.

So with this fictional branding and non-fictional now I'm assuming the personal self, then you also have your professional self. How do you choose when to embrace that non-fiction versus your?

fiction. Well, I'm telling you, as an individual, you don't ever fictionally brand yourself. I don't try to come off better than I am. I embrace who I am.

What are you talking about? Everybody does like world's bestselling author Like. How many are there?

Well, exactly, and that's where I go, number one, whenever you see that. You know, unless you are a legitimate New York Times bestselling author, to claim that you're a bestselling author on Amazon is laughable, because I know how that game is played. I made a meme about it. You get somebody who hires a bunch of people, or you buy a bunch of copies yourself and you inflate those so that one day, for one hour, you were the bestselling author in your very nichey category. So then you can say Amazon bestselling author. That to me is a flip and lie. You put it on Amazon.

It gives you a number as bestselling author. Yeah, I'm bestselling author, but they leave out the number of 2,999. Yeah, well, exactly.

And if you're in a niche like bestselling business. Author on management of ferrets as a category, yes, I'm the number one bestselling author on Amazon in business under managing ferrets. Is that impressive? Not to me. If you buy into those kind of faux metrics, anyone who leads with that, I just go. Okay, I'm not buying you. Like, I don't mean to insult anyone, but I will say that I derisively say that anyone who leads with Ted X speaker, I go. Oh, ted X, the kids table of Ted. If you're a Ted speaker, you don't need to say you're a Ted speaker because you're big enough to be on the stage at Ted. If you're a Ted X speaker, you could be at Ted X. Pocatello, idaho.

Big woof. Okay, so this brings a good little point to address. So for somebody that has is the experience, the acknowledge and the wisdom to be able to step up and say what needs to be said. But how do they do that? Because you got to flash some sort of credentials that put you into the hot seat. Like where's that line?

Okay, think LinkedIn profile right, You've got the stuff you lead with, and then you've got the stuff that goes down the page. That gets more detailed, right? It's kind of like the overview stuff up top and then more and more detail as you go down the webpage. You definitely want to have that. You spoke at Ted X on that page, but is it what you lead with? The fact is, it's not that difficult to become a Ted X speaker. It's like I spoke to the Qantas club in my local town. It's a little bit more than that. Yeah, you have to apply and you have to follow a format that is kind of the Ted format and they work with you and all that stuff. So, yeah, there's some value in that. I don't mean to poo poo at 100%, but if that's what you're leading with, that's like saying I went to college as your lead, well, okay, great, that qualifies you for something. But if you went to Harvard but even people who went to Harvard get ripped on about that because they always find, within 30 seconds of meeting you, a way to mention that they went to Harvard- yes, they do. It's like dude. If you have to whip out your diploma to impress me, I'm not impressed. How about you impress me with your thought leadership? The way you're making me think, the way you're making me huh? Wow, never thought of that. You're interesting. And then you go back and you look at all the things that are like the what I call the back of the baseball card. A regular baseball card has a baseball player on the front with their bat or out in fielding a ball or whatever it is, and then on the back you see the stats. There are RBI's, how many games have they played? All that stuff the front of your baseball card is more important than the stats on the bat.

I can't stop laughing Like when you said, like if they went to Harvard, they somehow find a way to get it in. That's what fucking Tim Ferriss does. Everybody he talks to he has to interject it within two minutes of the conversation. I'm like, oh my God, just shut the fuck up Well, and that's the whole thing.

It's like there are people who are impressed by that. I'm not one of them, If that's where you got to go to try to impress me. It's not working, dude. And, by the way, that's part of my brand, which is I judge people not by the quality of their resume but the quality of the person who's in front of me, impressing me, telling me stuff I don't know, sharing with me, and anyone who kind of leads with this is the size of my Johnson, come on.

Yeah, it just shows that they're actually not to be trusted and they'll fuck you over the moment they get that chance. Or it's just business per se.

Or that they're so shallow and vapid that that's what they lead with. Because here's the thing, there is a dumbest person at Harvard, meaning there is a bottom of the class, like I don't know if you know this, but at West Point. George Custer was a cadet at West Point. I'm, yes, very aware of that, and he was the lowest performing cadet at West Point. Yes, and it kind of proved true at Little Bighorn he was. He loved his long flowing locks, his wonderful blonde hair, and everybody around him knew that he was mostly hot air. And then he got his entire command killed. Good job, george.

Well, we could thank him because he actually put all the stake parks into protection. I know he did something with delegating enough land to be protected so we wouldn't destroy it all.

Well, are you thinking about Teddy Roosevelt?

Oh shit.

Yes, that's him. Thank you, yep, yep. Teddy Roosevelt created the first national park, which was Yellowstone.

Yes, god damn it, people have fallen yeah no worries.

But that's the thing, custer. He on paper went to West Point. He on paper was, I think, a colonel, not even a general. I'm not sure I may have gotten that wrong, but he proved his competency in a very, very painful way, or his lack of competency, I should say.

So there's multiple ways that we could illustrate ourselves, like what's the best way, it should be, what works with us. I mean, I try to illustrate myself through the character, through my actions, the words that I say, and it's congruent with the outcome that I desire.

Yeah, well, absolutely. But I'm gonna get a little bit more specific than the kind of be who you are thing, which is absolutely true. You have to be who you are. One of my Yoda phrase for what I teach is know who you are so you can be it. You know what does that mean, jedi Master? It means you have to know who you are, cause I see it all the time where you've got all these influencers out there who are trying to be something they naturally are not, yes, and then you find out after five years of doing that they burn out and can't do it because that's not who they are. Meanwhile, let's look at Gary Vaynerchuk, gary V. You probably are aware of him. Everybody is right. Yes, you can go back on YouTube and see the very first Wine Library video he ever did in like 2004. I think it was 2004. And he looks like he's in his basement. He looks like he's being held by the Bordeaux Liberation Front as he talks about this wine that you know. He literally was working out of the family owned liquor store someplace in New Jersey and it's shot on a terrible camera. He's got all the personality of drywall, but a little bit more than that, and you can see where Gary V started. We all know him as this kind of bombastic flamboyant out there F-bomb dropping guy who's now in his 40s but still insists on wearing a beanie type cap half the time, and he's surrounded by 20 year olds who want to be just like him, able to drop an F-bomb right and left all over the place. Well, here's the reality. Gary V doesn't have to work hard, he has to be who he is. He absolutely is 100% authentic to who I believe him to be. I believe if I met him, we would have a fascinating conversation and he would not disappoint me at all. Meanwhile, he's surrounded by all these primarily young men who want to be like him. They want to be the next Gary V. So they literally act like Gary V. We've all seen the idiots who stand in front of Lamborghini's pack, you know, with fat dachs of cash, talking about how you can get a six figure income in 60 days, and the answer to that is BS. The only way you can do that is deal drugs. You know, the reality of it is you got to work your butt off to get anything you're going to get, and the only way you can sustain it is by being who you are. It's that old saying if you're not a liar, you don't have to waste any time remembering your lies. I don't have to waste any time remembering my lies, because I don't tell lies. I am who I am. I know who I am and I am being it. The question for you and your audience is have you done the work to really understand who you are? It might surprise you, because, guess what? Who you think you are is not necessarily the same as who other people think you are. And just bear with me as I take you through this. I teach a thing called. I call it the key three. Why? Because we can only remember three things. Come on, we have limited brain space. We're human beings, but three things to remember about yourself are who you are, what you do and how you do it. And so, consequently, have you discovered the three words, phrases or concepts that truly reflect who you are, what you do and how you do it? For myself, my three words are creative yes, I have to be on the creative side of the fence for everything. You will never get a spreadsheet from me. Good, collaborative I have to work with other people. I can't do it all myself. Even if I work by myself a lot, I still have to work with other people to learn their stories, to tell their stories, to help them, and also even with myself my podcast. I have to have guests. Could I come up with a podcast that doesn't have guests? Sure, would it be as interesting to me? Absolutely not. Why? Because I need to collaborate with other people. The third word concept that I use is provocative, and this came about not because I thought of it, but because I asked the people who know me best what is the most important thing I can do for you, or what do I do best? I thought they might say something like oh, you're kind of funny, you Get the people going. Yeah, well, you can get people excited or interested. You know stuff like that. I thought they might say you write pretty well because I've been doing it my entire professional life. I'm a writer, right. I thought they'd say you're a pretty good writer. I heard this over and over again. When I asked that question what do I do best? Some variant of you make me think and I'm like what does that mean? I make you think. Well, you, always, if I come to you with a piece of writing, you find a way to make it better. Or you ask me would it be better if you did it this way, or whatever. I literally provoke thought and I like the word provocative because there's a little bit of a poke edge to it, Because I always want to be kind with any type of critique I give. But I also want to make you think about it, like, hey, that's pretty good, but it's not great. What if you did this? Poke, poke, poke. And making people think is a dangerous thing. I once heard a saying from somebody that if you make people laugh, they will love you. If you make them think, they will hate you. And I still consider what that actually means. But you can see it, I don't have to think when I do certain things. I love doing that thing. I have to think when I do this thing, I don't like it. Other people will be like me. I like to think about things. So that's the stuff I'll think out. I will think Like this is a kind of Wait, hold on.

Before we. I don't want you monologuing too long, so when you get people thinking because I feel like I have that effect, and then you said that they will hate you, literally that feels like my life right there. It's because I try to inspire, I try to motivate, I try to share this new knowledge that I come across when I'm constantly studying, constantly reading, and I share it, and now all of a sudden they hate me because it's the way it's being delivered. It could be condescending. When I try to be aware of how I approach these situations, how I deliver it, no matter all the contexts I take, left and right, everything, just it gets off negative and it's like what the fuck?

Okay, well, number one you can't make anybody think anything. They think themselves. If, like I'm a writer, I love words. I love words that not necessarily everybody uses. Yes, the reality is, and I don't know the exact number, but you can live your entire life using only about 5,000 words. I use about 50,000 words because I enjoy it. They are the colors on my palette and as an artist, as a word-oriented artist, I wanna use every color sooner or later. And it's not that I'm trying to shine people on or be better than them or anything like that. It's the way I think, it's the way I roll and I feel the pain. I hear the pain in your voice when you say I'm actively working on bettering myself. I wanna share that with other people. And they don't wanna better themselves, because that's kinda what you're really saying.

But, also showing the light sharing the light that there is a better version that is obtainable. Yes, yes.

Well, until they get to the point where they wanna attain it, they aren't going to try to get better and, for whatever reason, I can't do their psychology. I can work on my psychology and I'm not. There's a old saying that the people who got you there are not the people that are gonna keep you going. The people who got you where you are today aren't necessarily the people that are gonna get you where you're going to be going in your life path. Steve Harvey, the great comedian he talks about that all the time. All the guys he hung out on the street, they still want him to be Steve Harvey guy on the street. When he's Steve Harvey, the multi-millionaire who has TV shows and all sorts of products and stuff for sale, and he, legitimately for himself and I'm paraphrasing the story tells himself he realized oh, just because they were with me then, they can't be with me now because I'm not there then anymore. I am on a trajectory. I want to bring everybody along with me on that trajectory, but guess what? They get to vote. They don't have to go along that trajectory, and when they choose not to follow the trajectory that you're on, there's gonna be resentment on their part, cause okay there is a concept Hold on, I want to see what you're saying the fact that you're on this trajectory, you're still going towards the higher level for yourself.

But the fact is, your presence was in their presence to show them that, hey, this way is the right way, and if they choose not to follow, then that's on them.

It is. Yeah, if you are literally trudging through the snowdrifts, creating this path behind you and giving them, come on, all the encouragement, all the tools, all the information and insight, and they don't want to follow, because it's tough walking through snowdrifts, who is that on? Not you. You're the one breaking trail. If they don't want to follow the trail, that's on them. And the thing is, you can want them to come along. I don't know if you've ever had any family members who are cursed with addiction of any kind, but if you have, you know you can do everything possible to try to help them out and they won't take it because of whatever's going on in their life and you can't fix them. There comes a point where you have to say I love you, I will help you. If you calm me up in the middle of the night needing help, you can always count on me. But I will not condone the behavior that you're doing now and if that behavior is more important to you than our relationship, I'm sorry, but I'm not signing up for that.

Bam. Wait. Now, as a leader, someone that's trying to motivate a large mass of people to get them to follow them, is there a difference from what you're explaining versus trying to influence this people to follow you?

Well, a big part of that. You're kind of getting into the whole conversation about culture, like if you're a business or an organization and you want to create a culture of high performing individuals that are very collegial and very you know they're like comrades.

I want to compare them. I want to be able to compare those in real time for people to understand.

Yeah, okay. Well, number one it's easier to start a culture from scratch than change a culture. So let's just admit that from the get-go and I know you served in the military, right I've never served. Yeah, I've never served, but I am aware of the brands. That are the armed forces of the United States of America and I would just ask anybody is there a difference between a US Marine and an Army soldier? And the answer most people would say was yeah, there's a huge cultural difference, and I'm not saying one's better than the other, but I will say this the Marines, oh my God one. Once you're a Marine, you're never a Marine, or you're never not a Marine. And what I mean by that is I worked for an organization that dealt with a lot of veterans and you would never say retired Marine. Why? Because once you're a Marine, you're always a Marine. You could say a retired Army general or whatever, but never with Marines. It was, it was hammered home. Why? Because the Marine culture is once you're a Marine, you are never not a Marine. And they tout the founding you know the founding of the Marine Corps in that tavern in Baltimore or wherever it was, in 17, blankety blank, whatever the year was. Yeah, if I were talking to a real Marine, they'd be able to tell me all about it. Why? Because that is inculcated in them. That sense of pride and culture is surrounding them, not only when they're serving, but when they exit service Again, they never retire. They're still a Marine, but there's a huge difference. So you're asking how do you create a culture like that? Well, number one, you find the true believers who have that flame of whatever the truth of your brand is in their heart, and a lot of companies I like to tell anybody who's got less than 50 employees your company is you. You the founder, the CEO, the president, the head person. You are the DNA of your company and everybody will be looking to you for the example of how they should act, how they should react. And then certain people within the company are going to embrace that DNA that you've provided them better than others. Identify those keepers of the flame of your brand internally and empower them to create with you the culture that will be enforced by everybody within that culture. And then be slow to hire, fast to fire. If you're slow to hire, because you're hiring not for resume, not for a parent's skill set, but because they share the key values and morals that you do, knowing that if they're smart, you can teach them anyway anything. Hire for taste and talent and that innate. I want to be what you guys are. And then if they prove not to be, that, if they are just a good interview at a job interview, get rid of them quickly, kindly, but quickly, because a cancer, all it takes is one cell to turn a culture. Cancer is.

Yeah, and what you said, like it's a developmental role, like if you don't know, you will learn the concepts you, they will give you the tools. That's what learning organizations today are inspiring to do for their people. But with influencing and motivating somebody to see your perspective, like how has that done for a leader that doesn't know how to do that yet?

Well, there's the whole management philosophy of managing by walking around, meaning, get out of your office, stop looking at the spreadsheets and the reports for at least 50% and start walking around the shop floor, the, you know, the back office. If you have multiple stores, hop on that truck. You know it's an old story about Sam Walton the Walmart that the big truck would show up with the new stuff. They'd open the door of the big truck and there's Sam Walton standing there waiting to see who's greeting this truck. Do they have what's needed to get the stuff out of the truck fast? You know, and literally there was a little bit of fear there. It's like crap, am I going to open up this truck and find Sam Walton staring at me? Well, if that's what you want people to understand, you got to be Sam Walton in the truck. There is nothing. There is no, you know, embroidered fleece that is going to make someone feel part of your company. But if your president walks up to you one day out of the blue and says you know what? I heard that you saved us $15,000 because you found a better supplier for this product that we use. Thank you for that. Oh and, by the way, I got you an iPad, what would you do when you walked home and talked to your spouse? You will not believe what happened today. The president of the company came up to me and praised me. You know, gave me this and, look, I got a brand new iPad out of it. It's not about the iPad. The big thing that excited the person is. The president of the company talked to me and said thank you, get out of your office and into the lives of the people who work with you to build the kind of culture you want to have.

Wow, no, that hits home right there and I feel like that little iPad seals the deal as in like you know what? That's my style. Take an iPad. I don't get the fuck like this.

Yeah Well, and the whole thing is, even if the guy never uses it and just gifts it to his kids, it's still a iPads. You know they aren't terribly expensive, but they also are not cheap. Logo wear does nothing, and this is my you know personal opinion. Logo wear does nothing to engender culture, but recognition of the great work you're doing with a little bit of significant gifting and it could be cash, it could be gift cards, it could be Maybe you do trophies. I think award ceremonies are great, but award ceremonies are terrible for the people who aren't getting an award, the person who's left out. It feels like crap. And I'm not a big believer in participation trophies. But you know it's a fine line. You have to inspire people and reward them appropriately. But don't forget, just by shining the light over here can make some people a little bit iffy about it. If they are too negative about it, you do need to get rid of them If they aren't inspired by it. Maybe they're the wrong person for the culture you're trying to build. Wow.

That's huge. I mean, that's something that's very interesting and I'm looking back. When I was getting my awards for all the hard work I was doing in my service, there was a couple people that were like I'm like, why are you going to be such a dick? But then it turns out later on they were a bad apple and they ended up getting kicked out of the fucking military.

Oh yeah, and that's the thing. Not everybody's fixable, Because here's the thing you can't fix them. They have to fix themselves and the way they do that. Some people have to hit bottom multiple times before they finally wake up and go. You know what? I need to change my attitude, and that change comes from within them.

Meaning midlife crisis. What have they experienced that already and they still haven't fucking pulled their head out of their mouth.

Some people, unfortunately, have had up the ass syndrome and let me tell you and sometimes they're members of your family it can be very painful. I mean, I don't know about you, but I literally have written family members out of my life because they were not good for my life. Yes, you gave them chance after chance, after chance after chance, and you just realize, oh, they want me to live in their world, as opposed to the world we all share. Sorry, I'm not going to live in your world. I'm a citizen of our shared world. Anytime you want to come back to that world, open arms. But until you make the change, there's literally nothing I can do about it.

And when they do come back and it's just a way to pull you back in, to try to get you into theirs, there has to be a limit to putting yourself out there to allow these people back in.

Oh yeah, absolutely. If they've already done the three strikes, you're out thing. They don't get three more strikes, they get oh, that was another strike. So see, and, by the way, we're done. Done now, because. Because I have no time for manipulators or people who demand that you live in their world.

So love can be a bitch when it comes to realizing these factors that are affecting you. When you're trying to help somebody, when you're trying to get to pick them up, give it two years, three years. Next thing you know you lose yourself. Oh yeah, and then the individual still got you to come down to their level when all you were trying to do is pull them up. But every time it was a little bit lower, a little bit lower, and you think you're helping. But now you realize you just lost yourself and you don't know who you are, and everything that you thought you illustrate is now a representation of the person you were trying to help. So how do you get out of that?

Well, you do the Steve Harvey thing. The people recognize that the people who got you to where you are are not. The people are going to necessarily follow you forward, and if they can't move forward from where they are, they will always seek to tear you down to their level. Why it's the only. It's like they're clawing at you, you know, okay. So one of the things you learn when you're a lifeguard is if someone is drowning, do not allow them to climb on you, because they will climb on you to try to push you down, to get them up. That's what they're doing. These people are drowning. If you part felt want to help them, do what lifeguards do, which is and I trained as a lifeguard a long, long time ago they teach you how to do a crossarm carry, where you're pulling them toward the shore. The second they start flailing. I was trained to dunk them underwater, to rotate them underwater so that they would let go, so that I could then re engage with them to pull them back. That's a lifeguard. You don't have to be someone's lifeguard.

Interesting. Okay, no, I like that, holy shit. I feel like we hit a lot of great topics and I want to start wrapping this up. How would you create a transformation? Others that there wasn't any transformation in yourself?

I'm not sure I understand your question. If you're trying to inspire people to transform themselves, the best thing you can do is example. Provide the example.

But what if you don't have that ability? So I'm going to say it again how do you create a transformation in others if there's no transformation in yourself?

Well, you're constantly working towards transforming yourself, toward whatever your goals are. So, yeah, I mean, there are people who peak in high school. Right, it's like, yeah, I won the state championship and that's the best thing I'll ever do in my life. I was not that guy. I still have not peaked and I'm significantly older than you, young man, and I am not going to peak until the day after I die, because I still have stuff to learn. And so that act of transformation again, believe me, it inspires the right people in your life. They see you doing it and think, oh, I could do that. And, frankly, you're a resource so I can go to you and ask how did you do that? Or what do you think I should do to start doing that for myself? So your act of transformation is actually the catalyst for those other people in their lives who are interested in transforming their lives. So, yeah, transformation is absolutely necessary and I assume, based on the fact that you have a podcast and that you're doing what you're doing, that you are continually transforming. So, one, you're doing the transformation. Two, you're doing the inspiration. And three, you're opening up your arms in your toolbox of all the things you know how to do that could help them and sharing it with them. It's up to them to make the step toward your toolbox and toward your loving arms, and if they don't do it, that's on them.

I kind of also see it as an avenue for a way to help me, as you said earlier, starting a podcast to help yourself speak better, to recognize the language that you're using, the tonality, the context, the tack, to deliver the message. But for me, I feel like there's much more that I need to grasp on delivering a message, and it's understanding the situation. Am I understanding before I try to deliver to the audience? Am I delivering it in a way that can be perceived by the avatar?

Well, it comes with the ability to tell stories effectively. The most effective means of transmission of information between humans is story, and that's been that way, I love to say. It's been that way since Og and Mog were around the fire talking about how Schlag got himself killed because he didn't put the spear in the right place on the mastodon. Literally, that was the way the little cavemen learned how to kill a mastodon, oh, you have to put it right there, it's true. Is there any way that you've learned anything in your life that wasn't learned via story transmission? Even if it's how to open your computer. And you know why is YouTube so popular as a how-to channel for everything from changing a washer in a faucet to how to tune your car's engine? Because those videos tell stories. They show stories, and that's a huge lesson. Instead of telling stories, find ways to show stories, and it's kind of weird to say that a podcast is showing a story, but it really is. It isn't just saying first do this, then do this, then do this. It's telling stories. How many different anecdotes have we shared during this conversation today?

A whole shit ton and that is how it is painting the story is by the language that we're using and the understanding of the avatar, which is the common language that they understand, but be able to put these words, anecdotes, quotes, sayings together to illustrate our point of view but also to have a point in the conversation that we're trying to make.

Yeah, again, I chose to relate an anecdote about Steve Harvey, an American comedian. I didn't choose to quote a French philosopher from the 17th century. Why is that? My avatar doesn't know who René Descartes is. You're not from.

Harvard.

They probably know who Steve Harvey is.

Yeah, you're not from Harvard.

Yeah Well, yeah, I'm not from Harvard either. I went to a state school in Wisconsin, which makes me more of a Greg than a Gregory.

Oh shit, I like this. This is how it should be. These are the conversations that I try to get when I have people on, but sometimes it's too much and then I try to just break it. It's just no regurgitate information, just let it flow. And then they still keep falling back to the pitch, and then it's just all right, yeah.

Well, a lot of people are trying to sell something. I'm not trying to sell something, I'm trying to demonstrate who I am, what I do and how I do it. If some of your listeners go, oh, that DP guy is pretty smart, I like the way he tells stories, he's kind of funny and then they find out that, oh look, I have a book for sale. Nonfiction brand discover, craft and communicate the completely, true completely. You brand you already are. Maybe they'll go to Amazon and buy the damn thing.

You look better in person on the video than you do on the picture.

Well the picture? Okay. For listeners who haven't seen the cover of the book, there is a photo of me on the cover of the book. Now, you might think that's because I'm a raging narcissist. Well, I don't think I'm a raging narcissist, I'm probably a little bit, but I definitely attract those. I put my book on the, my photo on the cover of the book because, number one, as an author, my book's going to be somewhere in the book. But two, because of the nature of the book, all about personal branding and the desire for you to create a personal brand that allows you to step out of the shadows, into your own personal spotlight, because you just need to step forward and say this is who I am, what I look like, the way I talk, the way I tell stories. If you like it, great, let's talk some more. If you don't like it, even better, because then I don't have to waste any time on you. I can instead lavish it on the people who appreciate who I am, what I do and how I do it.

Yes, because those are the people that will care, is the ones, well, actually will buy your book, is the ones that actually want to read it.

Well, and to quote the brilliant bard of our time haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. There's nothing you can do about that and that's not my problem. Haters, I don't have time for them and frankly, I don't care why, because I am comfortable in who I am, what I do and how I do it, the personal brand that I'm building and what I'm trying to share with other people. If they don't want to pick up the gift that I'm giving, that's not on me, because I'm giving gifts.

I want one. What do you got over there?

All right. Well, one. Any listener can go to my website dpcanutencom spelled D, as in David P, as in Paul E. And then canuten K N U D, as in David T, as in Tom E, as in Edward D, as in nothing. Dot com slash gift, dpcanutencom slash gift, and you can download three PDFs. You don't even have to sign up for my email list if you're not interested, but they're PDFs that are worksheets. One is a series of five questions that can get you thinking about your personal brand. You know like, well, get down to the brass tacks of what is your personal brand. Then two others are actual tip sheets on what you can do to start building your personal brand for free on social media, starting today. You know this is not some well, you have to do 15 years of work on this to be able to start. No, you can start today utilizing a tool I call the unselfish selfie. It's a way to turn selfies into fantastic ways to shine a spotlight on other people. And here's the thing about spotlights you shine it on someone else, it reflects back onto you. The unselfish selfie powerful technique. And then another one is turning people's comments sections into a conversation via a tool I call the like plus. It's not just give them a thumbs up like, but add to that comment and begin a conversation with them. And let me tell you, if you start liking people that you think are flying you know, thousands of feet above you in a flock of people that you can never hang with, you're wrong. All you have to do is engage with them, get known by them. They see the value that you're bringing to them and then, if you're God forbid you're ever able to meet them in person and you walk up and say, hey, I'm DP, they'll go. I know you from LinkedIn. You're always in my comments. So great to meet you. By the way, I read that article you sent me really great. I want to talk to you about that.

What about the book? Did you read the book?

Yeah, Well, that'd be. The other thing is to read their book and to comment on it or, even better, give it a review on Amazoncom. So if you want to pick up a copy of the nonfiction brand book, go to Amazon, look up nonfiction brand and maybe add in the word canton K N U D T E N and you'll find it. And then, if you read it, by all means write a review, because that really helps other people find it Beautiful.

Thanks for joining us on this adventure of growth and discovery. If you're ready to achieve a sustainable transformation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And hey, if you've enjoyed the show and want to support it, take a moment to leave a podcast review on Apple or your favorite podcast platform. Stay connected with us on social media for behind the scenes, sneak peeks, inspiring quotes and the latest updates. You can find us on Facebook, instagram, tictoc and YouTube. Just search for YTS, the podcast. Until next time, remember change is constant and transformation is inevitable. Embrace the journey and keep rocking your way towards a better you. Stay bold, stay curious and stay true to yourself. See you next time on your transformation station.