116. Bridging the Gap: From Fossil Fuels to Electric Mobility “Mats Larrson” w/ Favazza

So I kind of look at the government as like some ADHD kid just waiting to the very last minute to do his assignments and like because we feel like we work better under pressure, but then that's how we fuck shit up and create long term problems that we're still paying for to this day. This happened years back then.

You're listening to a podcast that encourages you to embrace your vulnerabilities and authentic self.

This is your transformation station, and this is your host Greg Favazza Hi.

Hey there, Matt, Just one second getting everything all situated. How's it going over there?

I'm fine, thanks, how are you?

I'm doing well. Thank you for asking Now. Do you guys have snow happening over there out in Sweden?

We had a little. We still have very little. It's disappeared in the past few days. I'm in the south of Sweden. They have a lot more in the north.

Okay, and with the what do I say? This understand? Like this time, does the water freeze up to the point where it closes out the ports?

Not in the south. Normally it did when I was, sometimes when I was a kid, but nowadays it's usually not a problem in in the. In the north it does. In the Baltic Sea they have icebreakers and well, icebreakers to keep shipping running. But here in the south we usually don't have a problem. Usually down here we have a couple of degrees plus Celsius, even throughout the winter. Sometimes it gets down to maybe minus 10 or something like that and we get some snow. But when I was a kid we used to have snow all the time from end of November until early April, but those days are gone.

Well, I do appreciate you sharing that with me and for our audience. Could you provide everybody with a snapshot of your specialty and what you're trying to achieve?

Yes, I'm a business consultant since the 33 years and I'm I've for the past 18 years. I've studied the amount of resources that will be needed to change transport systems to electric vehicles and I've realized that a lot more resources in terms of electricity and investments will be needed to do this than decision makers have done. And, as you probably know, air regulators in California have decided to ban the sales of new gasoline cars from 2035. And the same decision has been made in by the EU and the UK government. So, and in fact, that won't be possible because so large investments will be needed to achieve this, so that they can't be managed until 2035 or the years following 2035. Just as an example, to change the all the transportation systems cars, buses, trucks in the US to electric vehicles, you would have to have, you would have to double power generation, and currently in the US you have power generation amounting to 4000 terawatt hours, and that's the annual generation of 350 nuclear reactors or 1.2 million wind turbines. So even to change your car fleet to electric cars would require really large amounts of electricity, amounts that are not available in any country, and there won't be enough time to build up those resources rapidly enough to be to change to electric vehicles by 2035 or 2040. Okay, that's what I thought.

It's really specific. I want to just summarize this for our audience can understand. So we're looking at the transition of fossil fuels to green energy and now taking that into account from a climate change, from a geopolitical perspective. Now we're trying to essentially get a strategy involved on approaching this, this issue. That's about to that. There's a lot of issues within this issue. One I mean the fact of trying to go down this rabbit hole to create these electric vehicles is transition to green. Essentially, that's going to admit a lot more burning of fossil fuels to actually create the batteries needed to create the infrastructure needed. And the most important thing we got to understand is we all have to be on the same page. Is that it so far that I have a grasp on that?

Yes, definitely so. Governments and sustainability experts have advocated a change to electric vehicles, and so far, few people in the world have explored the amount of resources that would be needed to do this, and I'm one of the few people who have done it, and I've recently published a book called how Building the Future Really Works that's available on Amazoncom, for example, and where I go in and look into this in some detail.

Yes, you published that back in September and I would love to go deeper into that, but we'll save that for later, around the end of the show. So if we're trying to understand this from a micro level, we need to get everybody on all levels understanding the issue. How would we get that to happen? What would we tell people? So maybe at the moment in time for this to happen.

Well, I often take the Apollo program as an example. And to send the man to the moon and bring it safely back to Earth again, as John F Kennedy challenged the nation in 1961. And it wasn't enough to just build a few rockets that could perform the missions. Nasa also had to build a space center. They also had to build a launch ramp, a huge building for building the rockets that you needed, moon landers. You needed lots of new technology, miniaturization, etc. And computing power to control this mission. So and it's the same with electric, the change to electric vehicles, it's not only about getting people to buy more electric cars or getting companies, transport companies, to buy more electric trucks, it's you also need the entire systems of for power production, for power power grids, you need charging infrastructure and you need to build these things in unison so that they, in an orchestrated manner, like they did in the Apollo program, to make sure that all the components of these systems will be ready when they are needed.

So and Wait, if we're looking at this on a commercial level now, if we're building these batteries, are we looking at the ability to remake the batteries that's already built? Because when we're talking about disposing of these batteries, I know it's not good for the environment and that's where we have to look at going green, but I mean mining for the necessary things that we need to create lithium ion cells. What exactly like? Let's just look at that part and keep climbing the ladder as we go.

Yes, absolutely. Lithium ion is an essential component of this and at the moment there is no system in place for the recycling of lithium ion batteries, at least not for a large-scale recycling. But for the moment there are not either too many lithium ion car batteries available that needs to be recycled, because most of the cars that are in use today have not been used for more than 10, 12 years, so they're not used up. But when a large number of cars get to the end of their lifetime, the lithium ion batteries will need to be recycled, and there are technologies and there are companies that are prepared to build recycling plants for lithium ion batteries. So I don't think that will be a big problem. The recycling of lithium ion batteries. There is mechanical recycling, there is chemical recycling and so on. It may be a problem actually to get enough lithium to make batteries for all the cars that will be needed if everyone will need to buy an electric car from say, 2035 or 2040 and something like that, because current reserves of lithium are I don't know exactly, but they are estimated to be not to be large enough to make this possible. So there may be also need for other battery technologies, like sodium batteries or other technologies, but of course also the capacity of batteries. The amount of lithium needed to store a certain amount of electricity will go down as well as the battery technology improves.

That's really interesting. Now I'm looking at it from a change management perspective. I mean, right now, one would be we got to secure executive sponsorship for this change efforts. Then we have to build critical competencies at all levels and then a common language for the change. Now how would we relate that from a business perspective to a global scale, essentially to get the whole world to realize, hey, this is what has to happen for our children's children?

Yes, I'm really happy that you mentioned the term change management, because that's what it is. It's about to a large extent, and we do need a chat language to talk about this, and for the moment, there are ideas swirling around saying that we can do this transformation in a few years' time, a little more than a decade, and that no problems will arise, and so on, but we do need to develop a language that we can all relate to. That also involves the various components of this change. Like I said before, we need to be able to talk about the expansion of power production. We need to be able to discuss the expansion of grids, and it's not only local grids. There are national grids, the high-voltage ones that bring power from power plants to users. There are regional grids that serve the region and there are low-voltage grids that basically, are the ones that people plug into on a daily basis when they use their facilities at home, and we need to be able to talk about that. We also need to be able to talk about the charging infrastructure, and there are different ways we can solve the charging. At present, we have stationary charging, we have fast chargers and we have normal speed chargers at home, but there is also an opportunity, or perhaps a need, to build electric road systems, and people will need to become aware of that and decision makers need to become aware of those opportunities. And we also need a lot of people with the right competencies to build these systems and optimize these systems so that they become both cost-effective and also user-friendly, because people won't want to stand on the ground. They will have to wait for hours in line waiting for their cars to be charged, having five, six, seven cars ahead of them, and when we need to charge, we want a charger to be ready for us and we need to know that we can go there, charge and go back and continue our journey. So a lot of things need to be in place. We need to build a language by which we can discuss this and come up with different solutions and projects, basically, that we can start to develop these resources.

This is beautiful because there's a lot we can unpack here. Now we're covering electric mobility. This represents the concept of using electric powertrain technology in vehicle information and communication technologies, connected infrastructures, to enable electric propulsion of vehicles and fleets. Now I used to work at Amazon. They were just transitioning from gasoline to an all-electric fleet, and now I'm seeing that happen in real time in the local warehouse that's near me out in St Peter's, missouri. So we have companies that are starting to make the change. However, there are still people that are lagging. I think they call them like laggards when you're trying to get the entire society to make this jump on a technological advancement. Now for this, there's so much more that we need to unpack. Is electricity cheaper than gas? Is the efficiency of the vehicle better than gasoline? And then we've got to look at the debt that's going to be caused for making this change, and then the type of leadership who is going to be able to handle this giant transformation in a new way of living.

Absolutely, I agree. Well, there are differences between countries and I'm not sure whether in the US, whether charging and going with electric vehicles will be less expensive than going using gasoline, because you have low gasoline prices in the US which we don't have here in Europe. So in Europe, definitely, if you can charge at home, it's cheaper to charge using electricity compared to filling your car with gasoline or diesel. But it's really, there will really be a big change because electric cars and electric trucks and buses are much more expensive at present than gasoline or cars or diesel trucks and buses. So it's not only about the cost of the fuel. It's also a matter of whether people will be able to afford the higher cost of vehicles, and we can't be certain that the price of vehicles will go down very rapidly so that everyone will be able to afford an electric car in 10 years or 15 years.

So I have an idea as far as looking at it from a top-down approach. I think if we are able to elect the right government officials that are focused on this change now they start applying this change to what's actually needs, the biggest things. First, I'll say with we have, I'll say, public transportation. We have airlines, flights and airlines, we have ships. If we can address those first, and then, as we start to delegate it down to the micro level, I would suggest stimulus checks be sent out to everybody, that is, specifically for the purchase of an electric vehicle and then also a bigger return when you trade in your vehicle for this, and I feel like that's a good way to get things moving.

Yes, it would be a way to get things moving absolutely, and here in Europe, many governments have offer subsidies for purchases of electric vehicles. Most governments actually in well, maybe not most, but the more the wealthier countries, I'd say it's offer subsidies or have offered subsidies for electric vehicle purchases. What I'd say is that we need to build competence about this in the way that NASA did in the Apollo program. It's not enough for different experts or political parties, university professors and research teams to come up with ideas and launch them into the media and so on. There needs to be a body of knowledge that's going to be built around this issue that covers the different aspects. Like I mentioned, nasa and they built knowledge about the entire range of the technologies of needed in the Apollo program. So we need agencies, government agencies that build competence in the different areas and to understand charging, power generation in relation to electric vehicles, charging infrastructure and how these systems will have to be built in order to become cost effective. And that's something that's been done in the United States over and over again in technology development processes for computers. I mean the government, or various branches of the government, developed computers for the military forces to calculate artillery trajectories and other things that they used the early generations of computers for. The ARPA developed the ARPA net, and government agencies have also developed aviation technologies and so on, and they built competence in areas like what are the key development steps that need to be taken, what are the key technologies we need and what are the bottlenecks currently that we need to remove in order to facilitate taking another step along this process. So the same type of thinking needs to be applied in the development here of of electromobility. There needs to be a government agency, or a couple of government agencies perhaps to take responsibility for different or get responsibility from the president or from the government for different areas of this development. Because in those examples that was except for the Apollo program that wasn't a time pressure. That wasn't a time pressure to develop computers by a certain time or by a certain year, or the ARPA net by a certain time or a certain year, or aviation technologies at a certain speed. But in this case there is an ambition to drive the development of electromobility forward so that large systems can be implemented within the next couple of next few one or two decades. So we need to build that competence and understand how can we do that. And we couldn't do that without collecting competencies that are necessary in the same room, basically, or in the same building, and get them to get together and solve these critical issues.

So I love that you utilize the military, and that helped me a lot grasp this on a much deeper scale. Now we're looking at building these critical competencies at all levels. Now, all levels are federal and state level, governments now electing these officials in charge to be accountable to disseminate that information. That's going to be one challenge already, but then it comes to establishing another organization or government infrastructure that holds not only the elected officials but the companies that are trying to pioneer this technological advancement in line as we continue to grow and make this change, so we can meet at the finish line to have this beautiful transformation of what we're going after, which will be electric mobility.

Yes, I agree. There is a need to build teams with competencies and build entire agencies, government agencies consisting of people with complementary competencies that make up the entire body of knowledge that will be needed to achieve this.

If we try to understand the common language for change. If you asked some random person what's the difference between global warming and climate change, would they know the difference?

Well, I'm not sure. Global warming, I think, is an example of climate change. Climate change is the broader concept that could involve different types of changes, but global warming is the type of of change that is going on right now, when we experience an increasing temperature on the planet.

Yes, I have the global warming. One aspect is the rise of temp due to increased concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Now, climate change refers to the increased changes in moisture of climate over a long period of time, including participation, temperature and wind patterns. Now, if we were to ask people like this a random survey, would they know the difference? And that's the problem is that we don't have the common language understood.

I agree. Yes, I find that very little of this has been discussed in the media and we're finding here in Sweden now in the past two to three weeks that it has suddenly dawned on business people in various industries, industry organizations, that we don't have enough power to charge our electric vehicles and that we don't have enough power to run the other types of programs that are part of the green transition here. We have two projects in the north involving the hydrogen based production of steel up there and they say they estimate that 50 terawatt hours of power will be needed to fuel those two steel plants in the future when they're up and running, and that's the power generated by five nuclear reactors. So it's a huge amount and it's actually one third of Sweden's current power generation. So, and we had an industry organization that went public last week saying that the government needs to take responsibility for the expansion of power generation into the future because there is a risk that 800,000 people will get unemployed if we don't manage this green transition. And 800,000 wouldn't be a lot in the US as well, but with a population of only 10 million in Sweden, 800,000 is mind blowing.

Yes, and that's 800,000 families that are going to be going hungry. And now what is the government going to do about that, when they could already have started to make the transition? If we're looking at this, it feels like it's almost impossible to incorporate this change from a ready developed country that has met their limits to have to make this drastic change. I can see it. It's a lot more easier and simple to grasp if we were to look at developing countries and push this change on to them, which we can see in real time what the effects are and how it's going to impact us in the future, and go from there.

Yes, it's difficult enough, I'd say, for developed countries to do this change over a short period of time, but for developing countries it will not be possible to make the necessary investment. We don't have developing countries in that sense, but we have countries that are not as affluent as Germany and Sweden and France. We have Poland, romania, lithuania and other countries from the former Soviet bloc in our neighbourhood. These countries will find it very difficult to invest in the expansion of power production and so on, to afford to implement electromovility on a large scale, and even though they could, relatively large extent import used cars from other countries in Europe, there is still a market for electric cars. In Poland, utilities estimate that only 10% of all cars could be charged based on the existing power grid capacity. So huge investments will be needed in these countries as well that have even less developed infrastructure than the countries of the western parts of Europe have.

Yeah, that's really interesting. It just came to me as far as with all the gasoline engine vehicles that we're trying to get rid of, essentially that would create a lot of jobs as far as stripping them down and mining for the parts that's needed to create electric vehicles and the inputs required to make this possible. And what do you do with the scrap. Recycling would have to be key.

Definitely. Yes, I'd say there will be a lot of jobs created in mining and Lithuania and production and so on, but there will also be a huge number of jobs created in infrastructure areas to expand power grids, charging infrastructure and power generation. Basically, just think of it if everyone in New York or cargo, la or wherever you can take your own town where you live, if everyone is going to have a charger at home where they can charge their electric car, you'll need 285 million chargers in the US to charge your 285 million cars. Maybe some households can do with one and they have two or three cars, but you'd need a huge amount of chargers, maybe 150 million or something like that and you would also need a large number of public chargers out in cities, along motorways and so on. You'd need a few million public chargers to be able to charge when you're on the go or when you run out of electricity in unexpected places. So there would be a huge need for installation activities. But in order to get all the electricity that would be needed out to motorways or to industrial areas in cities or to parking houses where not so much electricity is used at present, you would also need to expand power grids in many places and in order to reduce the need to expand power grids, you'd also need to install much more solar power and so on. So Elon Musk actually he said in an interview at a conference called CodeCon 2021, he said that the United States will have to double power generation and he also said that investments will be needed in all parts of power grids, and especially also investments in solar generation, because to reduce the need to expand the capacity of grids, that's really fascinating.

It's like a cascading effect. To make this happen, everything is going to have to change, and then we're going to have to hire additional people to incorporate this change and like what happens if we don't pursue this change.

Well, we've been talking about climate change, and that's one of the reasons why we need to reduce our carbon emissions, but there is also the fact that oil is not an infinite resource and the sources of conventional oil are not growing. Oil companies are not doing huge new findings of oil and discoveries of oil. They are, in fact, only 5% of the oil that's used every year is discovered in new wells, so the amount of new oil discoveries has been declining over the past decades and we're now at a really low level, despite the fact that we have a much higher oil price now than we had in the 1960s, when oil discoveries were at the top. So we need to develop new transportation systems that can replace the ones we have. We have seen an increase in the production of unconventional oil, like shale oil and these types of oil, but it's unlikely that these volumes will increase so that they can take over the entire oil production. We use 100 million barrels of oil per day in the world and the United States produces more than 10% of that. So you have huge resources of oil, as we all know, but they won't last forever and we don't know exactly when we'll reach the peak and when the volumes will start to decline, but they will and, as we have discussed, it will take decades to build new systems. So we need to start to build those systems now and to have them ready in a decade or two decades when oil production may start to decline.

I kind of look at the government as some ADHD kid just waiting to the very last minute to do his assignments, Because we feel like we work better under pressure. But then that's how we fuck shit up and create long-term problems that we're still paying for to this day. This happened years back. Then you mentioned the 5% ZET from globally ingress and import and export. You've heard of that.

No, the 5% is the new discoveries. So if we use 100 million barrels a day, that's 34 billion barrels a year, and so we use 34 billion barrels a year and new discoveries amount to approximately 5% of that amount every year. So that's about 7 billion barrels a year.

So if you were to walk up to the ExxonMobil CEO and just say, hey, what you're doing right now is not going to help our company or help our livelihood in the future. If we're going towards green, what would you tell them? To try to change his mind or to change his approach, to help us get on the same page?

Well, I think everyone, as we're all on this small planet and we're in it together, as we may say we all need to join forces to find out what the future will be like. And the oil companies have a huge and very important piece of this puzzle in that they know more about oil production than anyone else and they know how far, they have an idea at least of how far we can drive the expansion of oil production and how, when it's likely that oil production will reach its peak, and so on. So I'd say that that the oil companies need to contribute to our understanding of that. But also, we find here that we don't have oil production in Sweden. We have all this distribution and oil refineries, and these companies are investing now heavily in electric vehicle charging systems and other types of technologies to support the transition to electric vehicles, and that's also an indicator. I think that they understand that this needs to be done and that they need to take a part, and if they don't contribute, they will lose their market, and they won't. They need to grow a new market and compete in the electric vehicle charging environment.

Well, I mean that makes sense. I mean, with investors. They had to have a diverse portfolio in case of mobile one. Oh, it's Darren Woods, by the way. Is the DCI to look that up there? If that goes south, then they aren't completely out and they have electric technologies to fall back on. But I'm trying to look at it as if are we trying to view oil as the money, because if you were trying to follow the money, that would lead us to the goal that we're trying to accomplish, and not only this, but we're also trying to switch over to a digital currency simultaneously, like that, on top of going from, everything will be digital. I mean digital and then electric. That is going to set us apart. I'm just curious how many generations is it going to take for this to occur and not experience any setbacks?

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. The ambition to change very fast is perhaps not really realistic. We know that computer development took off, or it started, after the Second World War in 1946. But it also built on knowledge that had been developed previously with the punch card machines and so on and resources, not to mention for the development and production of punch card machines at IBM and other companies. So there was already some type of basic knowledge about this and it has had been incubating in various ways. But the development of computers started in 1946 or thereabouts and then it continued, and it wasn't until the early 21st century that computers started to contribute to economic growth, as the Nobel Prize winner Robert Solow said in the 1990s. I think that computers can be seen everywhere in society except in the economic growth projections. So we need to realize that in the past these changes and these large scale implementations of new technologies have taken 50 years or more to go from the start to the full fruition of technologies, and it would be naive, I think, to assume that we could implement electric vehicles and electric vehicle systems and digitize our currencies and everything in only two decades or something like that. We would need to have expectations that resonate with the experience that we have made over the past 50, 100 or 150 years of technology development.

That's fascinating. I want to play devil's advocate and look at why. We have already gone through technological change with the internet, massive information. Now we have already figured out ways to understand the big metadata issues and how to handle that. Now I'm trying to look at the world as a large entity, as an organization. What the organization needs is a transformation strategy. Now, this strategy is looking at the new technological advances and that we need to adapt in order to keep up with our competitors. However, there's no competitors, metaphorically, unless we don't know about it, but alien population here. But that's essentially what we got to have the mindset in order to grasp all of these problems. And put it simply, what do you think about that?

Yes, we don't have competitors in the sense that we have another species that would invade our planet or something like that, but we could see that within the human species we have different factions of interest groups. They are located in different places, as you have noticed in the past as well. In some parts of the United States you have incumbent auto companies, like in Michigan, for example, you have General Motors and Ford, etc. You have the invaders in the form of Tesla and others in California, arizona, you have Nicola, the new truck company, etc.

Yes, the global leaders of the current industry trends.

Yes, and we have a lot of electric vehicle companies in China as well, but the incumbents in this industry have lagged behind in the early phases of this development. We must be aware that these new companies may take over large shares of the market for cars, trucks, buses. It would mean that we get an invasion from aliens, but it would mean that the geography of these industries change from Michigan to California and other places where you have the new electric vehicle companies In Europe, from Munich, stuttgart, etc we have the BMWs and Mercedes to China and to California and Arizona, where we have the invaders. There is an element of this type of invasion and invasiveness in this development. We need to be aware that there will be big upheaval in places like Michigan and in Munich and Stuttgart and other places if these new companies take over large shares of the auto markets.

Yes, that's beautiful that you pointed that out With current industry leaders have to face the competition of new industries pioneering today's technological advances and looking at it from an outside lens that current industry leaders haven't taken the moment to seek is what they know works, is what they got them there in the first place, and the potential that I see is two things. One, new industry leaders can overtake these current global leaders, or they can fail and get bought out by current industry leaders, and that's kind of how everybody will be combined and that's where we would come to a common theme of the current industries, regardless of who yes, and we have the same in the fuels, like you mentioned, exxon, mobile Oil.

In the future, with electric vehicles, you will see that the General Electric will be more important than Exxon and Mobile Oil in terms of generating the electricity that's needed to power the vehicles.

So can you give us a little snapshot of how your book how Building the Future Really Works? You give us a little snapshot of that.

Yes, thank you, I've tried to. To start with the technology developments of the past, like the Apollo program and the experiences from computer development. Many of these have been run in the United States and you are the country with the most impressive technology development programs of the past. We need to learn from those and we need to take the experiences from them. Saying that in these developments the government has played government investment for many decades has played an important role in the development. It's not until a number of decades into these developments that these technologies have been able to stand on their own and become competitive and be able to finance their own pay their way forward, so to speak. In the book I've tried to learn from these experiences and apply these lessons on the development of electric vehicles and the electric vehicle systems that we have been discussing, the development of autonomous vehicles and the systems to run those, and see how do we need to approach these new technology developments and others to succeed with the transformation to a sustainable society or just succeed with developing the transport systems that we need for the future.

That's beautiful. I like that. Now, if you could leave our audience with anything, what would you let them know before I let you go?

I'd like to say that a lot of people need to learn about this and there are not so many books available that bring up this change from a large-scale perspective. In the Apollo program, 400,000 Americans were involved from the start in 1961 to the end in 1970, or something like that, after the moon landing and so on. That's an indication of the number of people that have been involved in these types of projects in the past. In order to build the systems for electromobility, with the investments in power grids, power generation, charging, infrastructure and vehicles, etc. More than 400,000 Americans will have to participate. I believe it's about time for more people to start to take in this information and start to discuss these different aspects and opportunities that we see and the different technologies. Will we need electric road systems charged on the go or can we rely on stationary charging in fast chargers or normal speed chargers entirely? What type of technologies will we need for reinforcing power grids? Will we need to digitize power grids or can we leave them analog to large extent as they are now? There are so many different alternatives and these issues will not solve themselves. People are needed that work with them and that outline the different development paths and to help us select the most cost-effective, the most user-friendly systems that we can develop into the future.

You said something that really stuck with me and took me on another realm when we're trying to implement this large of a change. I have a deep understanding of being in the military at the very lowest of the low, at the bottom of the ranks, as a rifleman, and then climbing up in the top next to the commander at a brigade level, delegating authority to 4,500 different troops, now having to illustrate the commander's intent towards the mission and then, if the mission changes within moments, you have to give everybody that information to reassess and go towards the new objective. I believe we have to really ask ourselves who are we communicating to to get this change to happen effectively? I would say, looking at military commanders at that high level, their job is to be able to orchestrate this change under pressure and effectively, but then also to incorporate outside units from an even higher level within the echelons and attachments and get them to move in uniformity to accomplish this scheme maneuver. I believe that's a really important assessment and to kind of take that mental model of what I explained and apply it towards electric mobility and I think we could really get something going.

Absolutely. I totally agree. We need to compare and approach this change based on references that we already know about. We can see similarities between how we need to leave this change to how the military operates and how the military refocuses or realigns forces in battle. We can see similarities to how companies organise and how build strategies for the future. We can learn from Klausowitz, the military strategist, from Prussia in the 19th century, etc. We need to learn, take all these different perspectives with us into this change to electric mobility and help people with different backgrounds relate to this and use our references from the military, from the Apollo program, from the development of computers, from aviation development, from airlines, etc. And apply this knowledge in this new field.

It's fascinating. We could go all day and I'm glad to have you on the show, so I really do appreciate you coming on.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your invitation and I enjoyed very much the conversation we had.

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