54. Here is Something New "How to" Elevate Simon Trevarthen w/ Favazza

Simon Trevarthen: 0:00

I mean, here's just one way, I would say maybe bring these things together and maybe it goes back to something you mentioned at the very beginning, which is telling your story. Yeah. That, that question, who are you? It's the classic thing at a party who are you? Most people define themselves as a role, but, and most people do like define themselves. As we said, there's a skill, a little bit more sophisticated. People talk about their experience. Maybe they talk about a key experience. All I was to do is suggest is to shift that and talk about what drives you.

Intro/Outro: 0:40

We're tapping into surpassing expectations from the most successful people in the modern day and honing in on new foresight, methodologies and clairvoyance. You never knew this is "Your Transformation Station" with your host, Greg Favazza gregory. How are you? I'm doing all right yourself. Okay. Let me just adjust them. Sure.

Gregory Favazza: 1:06

I apologize. My, uh, zoom, it crashed on me. So I had to reset my computer. No

Simon Trevarthen: 1:12

worries. Sorry about that. I was a bit late Johnny to my camera was playing out. Yeah.

Gregory Favazza: 1:18

It's usually some sort of audio issue that occurs.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:22

Yeah, absolutely. How are you doing today? Fabulous.

Gregory Favazza: 1:26

Good. How can I help you on your transformation

Simon Trevarthen: 1:31

station? Um, so I, I reached out to you really re I've done a lot of work. Um, I'm a speaker and basically what I do is I help people, uh, transform their lives. One of my key pieces is around finding your magic 2% magic, 2%. What do you mean by that? So. It's really about finding what is unique to you and what is the unique magic in terms of your creativity? What is your unique value that you bring to others and what is your unique drivers? Okay. And so, and so essentially what I've done, I've done this with people from whole hosts of different, uh, um, professions from lawyers, to doctors, to all of these kinds of professions, to business people, which is, we often define ourselves as a, as a basket of skills, right? You often ask, who are you? And they say, they're a project manager or an engineer. Well, that's really a skill. And those, if you have refined them to a craft, that's amazing, but ultimately they're a commodity. Any skill has a price tag. And what you're basically saying about yourself is that your shopping cart. Okay.

Gregory Favazza: 2:49

So what you're saying, I'm interpreting as a, when you ask them, who are you? And they say that they are a project manager, I'm assuming internally that they really don't have an identity. And the only identity they created was through their own profession.

Simon Trevarthen: 3:07

And I would just add to that. Sometimes those are in positions is what people think they should say. Did

Gregory Favazza: 3:14

I just see a butterfly go buy your Nope, I don't think so. I saw something go by. I'm like, what was that? He looked like a butterfly.

Simon Trevarthen: 3:22

So, I mean, I mean, that's, I mean, so essentially it's about finding that magic 2%. What is unique to you? What personally drives you and like, you know, and the interesting thing about what drives you is often you don't need to ex experience in that field. It can be a personal drive. It can be an ambition and the interest when you actually talk about what drives people. It automatically inspires the others. Even if you meet someone at a, let's say a gathering a party, and someone says I'm driven by X, Y, and Z. You may not agree with them, but you're actually inspired by that charisma. Um, the, the

Gregory Favazza: 4:00

story

Simon Trevarthen: 4:01

stories, the heart of story, it's the heart of what is your story and what is unique to you? And so many of our educational experiences often turn us into those commodities. Okay. Right. It adds to what a monitory set. And there were a lot of what I've do with clients and coach them through is say, well, what is the unique value you bring to others as an entrepreneur, as a business person, as a leader, what is the unique value you bring to others and organizational issue of customers? I mean, uh, one way to explain it is, um, you know, the four seasons hotel. Yes, there are a cut above the other five star hotels. And when they thought they actually asked that guests, that customers, why, and they thought it would be about that customer service, which is exceptional. They thought it would be about the concierge, which is exceptional. When they actually asked people, it was the humblest things that made the difference. For instance, they allow you to select your pillow. Okay. So it's a little tiny thing that has a huge impact because if you're a business travel and flown halfway across the world, what do you care about? A good night's sleep precisely, but it's those magic little, 2% that, you know, separate you from the average.

Gregory Favazza: 5:26

Okay. I'm collecting what you're putting down and I can almost relate it to a book that I've read through a James clear, it's a atomic habits. And he talks about the 1%. So I see where you're relating this. Now, if I said, Hey, what can you teach my audience? What would you, what would you do? Would you say to them?

Simon Trevarthen: 5:50

So, I mean, the next kind of piece to that is, is how do you then accumulate that? How do you define who you are and your experience? And so a lot of that is actually then the opposite, which is what actually we can go through as a simple exercise and focus on your negatives. So here's a simple exercise that we can do on the. Which is basically your, your value statement, your, your vision statement for yourself. And imagine getting a piece of paper, drawing a line down the middle and on the left-hand side. Imagine going for the interview. You most want to go for the job, the miracle job you want to go for, and then imagine describing yourself how you absolutely suck the worst way you could be totally be a seed. I mean, literally, and literally the worst way, rude, ignorant, stupid you name it. Make that list on, on one side and then get people to cause we're very good at our self criticism. How would we could be saved to the worst and then ask people to flip that and for every word, think of the polar opposite.

Gregory Favazza: 6:57

Okay. I can relate this cause I'm, uh, a full-time student in, uh, going for organizational leadership and. When you look at an appreciative inquiry, you want to, you're utilized on a say, it's the soar context, looking at the positives on what you can refine to go further, rather than looking at the negatives, because the negatives that will be the, uh, it's that for little box model that we all, I can't remember what that's called. Oh, that's gonna drive me nuts. But that focuses on the negatives with the soar context. You want to focus on the positives and how you can refine it. Cause sore, meaning you should just skyrocketing up you're soaring. And I see where you're going with that. I like that. That's that's what I'm transitioning to is looking at the organizational leadership, trying to build organizational connectivity on how people in charge, running an organization or people in a leadership position and also just people. I want to be a leader themselves, but don't know how to get, to get, develop that a criteria for their new identity. So if you can relate this information for those three types of individuals and then give us a step-by-step instructions, key points where people can understand, like, if you were to show it, teach me it as an, I don't know, a damn thing. I'm stupid. Yeah. I would like to learn. So please tell me how I can be better and how I can prove my

Simon Trevarthen: 8:40

vision. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great, that's great, Greg. I mean, what it comes to is then how you supersize that into the, into a business context. So products. So by going negative and flipping it, um, you're not, people are not hold the Holden to those words because they don't represent. But the other thing that is actually opens their aperture to be more creative. So an example of that is they've done this in product development for, for heaven sake, where they ask teams, come up with the worst product you could imagine. And this was in consumer products, the worst products, and one team came up with garlic soap. I kid you not garlic soap. And they said, and they got the prize kind of at the, at this kind of annual meeting, they came up with garlic serpents. And so you wash with it, you stink a garlic, but then they flip that and say, well, what are some attributes about that? Which are actually positive?

Gregory Favazza: 9:38

I would say the health benefits of garlic

Simon Trevarthen: 9:41

bingo. The problem with garlic is it smells

Gregory Favazza: 9:45

I'm Italian. So I don't mind the smell.

Simon Trevarthen: 9:50

So what they did was they said, okay, that's really interesting. How could we find ingredients that we could put into shampoos and soaps that actually. Um, have health benefits, but also, um, obviously have positive smells incense. So from that, you know, hundreds of million dollars industry was created from an exercise around garlic soap. So often you can do that within yourself because you're not limited and you don't feel, um, pre possessed by that negative. Another piece is, is this is really around changing the mindset as well. And actually think about your idea capture and having a strategy around idea capture. So one of the things I like to talk to audiences about is what is your daily ideas quota? So Thomas Edison very famously when he died, had 5,000 patients. So it was a massive innovator. Um, but when he died, they found 38,000 notebooks of ideas. Um, 38,000 notebooks of ideas. And essentially he wrote down everything, every idea here of a hat and Mo, and the reality is some are good. Some are bad, and some are just downright ugly, but every month he would basically do a filter and see which of these ideas is worth carrying on to the next month. And so getting people to understand at an idea's quota, because often people have great ideas and they just float away literally at the butterfly. You said, so getting people to think about that idea as quota, and you can do this for your teams, helps people generate, you know, an open the aperture of possibilities.

Gregory Favazza: 11:36

Okay. I wanted to just grasp it. So I kind of looked it up as you were explaining that, that actually I liked that because one you're you're training our mind where utilizing, uh, the malleability aspect and our nervous system to conduct. Innovation, but also two, one to keep accountant, keep to keep account of it because usually we'll have, I believe it's around 1500 to 3000 thoughts per day. Uh, I'm not sure if the majority happens in the shower or when you're walking, but that's the, the average they came across. But how many of those thoughts do we remember? Right. But what you're suggesting is almost like keeping a journal of these crazy, but interesting thoughts. I have a lot of those and I. Some of them. I write down, I texted myself, but the majority, I wish I did write down more like specific rather than something like just, oh, this the statement. And it's like, what does that even mean? You know, I just texted that real quick, but I see what you're saying. This is, this is actually good. You have more insight that goes along with this. Yeah.

Simon Trevarthen: 12:49

I mean, th the key thing with any idea is, is think of it as, as a spark, it's just a spark. And so again, think of the Edison experience. It's about building a constellation. If you're actually wanting to develop a song, you have to think of a constellation of stars, right? So then the next kind of piece to that is once you've got into the process of kind of having a daily quote and it could be 10, it could be five. And by the way, this is fabulous for your teams is then saying, well, what is that idea? It. Is it about me, my personal development. Is it about the team, the people I work with, or is it bigger than that in terms of the products, the services and experiences I'm trying to develop, and then you start actually saying, well, what do I do with this idea? Do I supersize it right? Am I thinking too small?

Gregory Favazza: 13:41

We always are thinking too small

Simon Trevarthen: 13:43

because that's what I mean, you know, is this an idea that is specific to me or is it to a group or a society or a market?

Gregory Favazza: 13:52

What you're explaining is universal specificity correction, universal standard that can be transferred over into cultural specificity in relation to your life and your specific situation. I think

Simon Trevarthen: 14:08

that's interesting. Yeah. And then the next piece is, so if you've done that, supersizing you see, what is the scope of this bit people be it then say, is it solving a problem? It's the idea actually solving a problem because ultimately innovation is about solving people's problems. So is this idea in itself solving a problem? And then you go to say, well, that's an observation question. If I think there's a problem being solved there, let's go out and see if people have these problems, right. Solving a problem. Right. Airbnb solved the problem of hotels in the restrictions and rates because people wanted more choice. So is it solving a problem? And then how do I refine that idea? Now we know the scope, we know the problem and how do I refine it into a solution if you

Gregory Favazza: 15:00

frame it that way, as far as the innovation it's solving a problem, at what point can somebody say. How do I expand? I thought I expand through innovation, solving a problem, meaning everybody's problem. My problem. Or can you go a little bit more into that? Sure.

Simon Trevarthen: 15:23

I mean, I think when you think about innovation, it's important to understand innovation is about creativity. We've talked about that, right? But innovation is about turning ideas and translating them into something of value and the question of value, because we all see a kind of devices which are useless and really don't have my actual application. We have to understand the concept of value value is what people perceive something to be. Can I see it solves my problem? I have an issue. It solves my problem. Am I willing to buy that? Right. Is there an exchange of value and it's not necessarily a purchase in terms of money, but it could be in terms of time, effort, resources, right. So do I see it solves a problem? Do I see it has value that I'm willing to exchange? And finally, when you think about the value exchange and sing, it solves a problem, can I, do I need it now? Is it there's an urgency piece? So that then helps you refine because not all products, not all solutions, not all innovations are for everybody. They can be niche. Yeah. Or they can be very broad. So the question is sort of that process, you can now refine what your innovation is and what its value is. And then the next question is, is it worth it? Is it worth pursuing, go back to the Edison? Is it worth pursuing. It, is it big enough? Can I, do I need to glue other things together? So the next question I would always ask people in that kind of approach is what are the ideas need to be tied together? So let me look

Gregory Favazza: 17:07

at this with the innovation. I like this, and I'm going to challenge you on. I want to make sure yes. What, what if we compare that versus the emerging market changes in the market, the situation, how will they approach that also is their organization a learning organization? Can you tell me a little

Simon Trevarthen: 17:30

bit about that? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, how can you to the emerging market? Well, if you actually think about most of the large successful digital type companies, what they've done, that's the solution they've actually created because they're not actually in most cases, content, producers, or creators. Airbnb doesn't own a single hotel, right? It doesn't own any taxis. What they have done is basically a name enabled a marketplace, like an old fashion marketplace, where people will want to sell something and people have something to sell, come together, their ecosystems. So that's one example of how you can think about that because it's done the questions of scaling the opposite though, is, is then thinking about then the niche products, which is important because when you think about what makes niche, it is often the perspective of quality. Go back to how people perceive value and quality is the consistent application of a high standard.

Gregory Favazza: 18:34

So I don't know if that's true at this moment. I mean, we're we have this, I want it now mentality. So is efficiency. Versus quality or I would say having it now versus quality better.

Simon Trevarthen: 18:56

I think that different things for different kinds of environments. Right. So if you think about what is customer service, think about it in three chunks. Okay. First one, what you're talking about is transactional effectiveness, right? So Amazon, Amazon is brilliant at three things, process innovation. That's what they're really the heart and soul of them and its completeness, accuracy and timeliness

Gregory Favazza: 19:26

about what the corporation, as far as what have you done for me lately and what are you accomplishing?

Simon Trevarthen: 19:35

So, I mean, so that again goes back to those metrics. Most metrics start with the efficiency, timely accuracy and completeness. Okay. If you don't get those things, right. If it's, if it's the wrong book that arrives on your doorstep, you get angry with Amazon, the middle piece. And I think this is where it becomes a more of a human perspective, less efficiency, more of a human high touch kind of perspective is when you talk about behaviors, can you codify behaviors? And if you think of codifying your behaviors, you come up with an experience design. So every time you interact with this company, this, you get the same kind of high quality experience. You feel respected all those good things. And Ms could think of everything from health care. They can, they can get you the right operation on time, et cetera, but your experience was miserable.

Gregory Favazza: 20:27

So how do you replicate that and get it. Disintegrate not disintegrate. Get it, get it delegated down to the lowest level.

Simon Trevarthen: 20:37

Great question. So I think that is then the question of actually thinking about what essentially are those behaviors. So that means you pull apart the attitudes, the behaviors, the norms of how we do things and then looked beyond your sector to who does it really well. We can all know of companies that we just seem to treat us better. Is that the product is better or is it actually the experience of dealing with them as better and dealing with whom? So Disney in its theme parks, isn't designed for the adults it's designed for the kids, but they think about all of the behaviors and they literally walked in. If you think design the experience as a walkthrough and think about all of those touch. And then you can say that then becomes how that is the basis of your culture. If this is how we treat our customers, this is how we treat our customers. I see what your Spotify, those behaviors, and if we really want to supersize it and go up to the real highest level again, quality is the consistent application of a high standards. I think about your customer experiences. The next and highest level is when the customer feels they are in the decision-making seat, they get options, right? So it isn't just the transactional. It isn't just that people give you great customer service, but you sense that somehow you're the decision maker. You get to tailor the solution to your unique needs.

Gregory Favazza: 22:11

That's based off the, I would say the perception of. Each individual within the organization and order for them to apply this mindset or adapt this identity, they have to believe in it. So then how do you

Simon Trevarthen: 22:29

reinforce it? Okay. So that's a great question. I think that that really speaks to the culture of the organization. Do you actually walk and talk the values, the behaviors and the norms, right? Do you actually, have you codify how you treat people inside of your proposition value proposition, but more than just the value proposition, culture and values is what you do when no one's watching. Yes. It's not what you do when everybody's is observing you. It's what you do when no one's watching. So if you'll truly believe in customer excellence, you try to solve the customer's problem.

Gregory Favazza: 23:10

What about under pressure?

Simon Trevarthen: 23:12

Yeah. I mean again, but that's a question of how then think about under pressure. Well, that means just unpack that for a second. Is it under pressure because the workload is too high, or if you not thought about the work many times in many organizations, there's a flow of work up and down. Yes. And so the question is then if, I mean, think about what drives people. We know this from Daniel pink, et cetera, people get driven by a sense of purpose, a sense of autonomy, right? They can make a decision, right? They've been given a set of values and based on those values, they can make a decision, a good call for the customer, right. And they give a sense of ownership. And if you've instilled those kinds of values and you have a sense of how you're going to treat your ideal customer, then it will be even under pressure. People would default to those positives rather than negatives

Gregory Favazza: 24:12

and go underneath this, uh, fellow state, because it's what they believe in because that's what even instilled. So how can you teach that to people who don't understand the bait, the basics of business and human behavior?

Simon Trevarthen: 24:31

That's a great question. I think one way to, to unpack that is what problem do your customers want solved? Okay. That's as simple as that, what is the problem? They really want solved, not the superficial, but the deeper one. So give an example of this. Speaking very humbly. You've probably never wanted to buy a computer, a smart phone, or any of these devices in your life. What you wanted was what those devices can do. Right? Watch video, access, content, speak to friends. That's what you want. Right? If you could email from an orange, you would buy an orange. It's not what you want. It's not the device. So if you remember years and years ago, when, when, um, the iMac, the first kind of I'm at the colored one that came out, what was revolutionary about that computer puffing, this gorgeous design was that you could take it out of the box and press on, and it just worked. You could be emailing in. Prior to that old, every time you bought a computer, you had literally had to buy the computer, download software, put on software. Sometimes you spend a week and literally trying to get the computer to work. People don't want a computer. They want what a computer can do. And so I think part of unpacking that is asking, what is your customer really want? Not the superficial, what do they really want? So if you're running, let's say a hospitality, does a customer really want a room or do they want a stress-free vacation? Because if it's a stress-free vacation, you can design an experience with that makes it a stress free vacation.

Gregory Favazza: 26:33

Okay. Now with that question, is that, is that a universal question that can be applied to different scenarios? Let me go into that. Just the, your initial customer. That's the question? What does he, for the example you use, do they want a stress free vacation? Yes. What if something went wrong and the customer's pissed off? Do you still have that mindset or do you want to alter that mindset to, they just want to be heard?

Simon Trevarthen: 27:02

So that's a great question. I mean, but that's unpack why the customer is pissed off. Is it something that your service has done or is it just they're angry because I've had a fender bender outside. Okay. So then, then that speaks to me is how you can actually train that. And there's a psychology around that. You know, Mr. Smith, you seemed really annoyed at the moment and agitate to what's happened. So you, what you can do is train people to empathize. Yeah. You know what? I was just out there and someone did a nasty signed to me when I was parking my car. Yeah. I hate it when that happens, so right. It's not about the service, if it is about the service and the question is getting to the root of the problem and actually start understanding what is the root of the problem and how can we solve that? And so, you know, you know, so you, you're angry about the cust the, let's say the hotel service, right? Okay. Well, what aspect of that? Okay, so it seems this didn't happen. How can I address that? And more importantly, remedy and go back to our values because we believe in a, B and C in order for you to get, because honestly, what I want from this Gregory is you'd have a stress-free vacation. I don't want you to have this problem. So let me take care of that for you.

Gregory Favazza: 28:23

Thank you. I would like my room comped and I want a free meal tonight.

Simon Trevarthen: 28:28

Okay. So again, do you have the autonomy to do that? Good question. Is it, is it a proportionate? You know what? I'll see what I can do. I can probably get the meal card.

Gregory Favazza: 28:41

And that's displayed through the very top, which is through empathy,

Simon Trevarthen: 28:47

it's empathy, but it's, it's, you know, it's about, you know, emotional intelligence. It is emotional intelligence, but think about the customer experiences that really great at you. It's when you're treated as a number, right? You're not treated as a human being, uh, treated as number 6, 1 2 account 6 1 2, and they really couldn't give a damn about you. So again, you've got to get the transactional, correct accuracy, completeness, timeliness. Then you can think about your behaviors and how you codify those behaviors and culture, but then you can actually then go to the supersize, which is enabling the customer to have those kinds of decisions. Now,

Gregory Favazza: 29:28

you said this with treating people like a number. We are now working from home. Everything is digital. I feel like this is a huge emerging problem. That's only going to get worse. How do you make it appeal to people that are working at home that will inspire them to take much more into account than what is being said through the virtual channel?

Simon Trevarthen: 30:02

Wonderful question. I think that the heart of that is two or three pieces. Human connection is the primary way we build trust. Right? When you, why do you sh shake someone's hand and look them straight in the eye and sit down and have a coffee with them because human connection builds trust. And these technologies are wonderful as substitutes as proxies, but they do lack that emotional connect. Particularly when you have not just one person, but a dozen people, right. You can read a room much more effectively than read a zoom room, right? Yeah. So I think what it pushes you to as a leader is to be very attuned to that piece, around connection, that piece around trust, building that piece around resiliency. And so part of that I think is really just acknowledging at the beginning, how tough it's been for people to get that sense of synergy. I mean, I know people who've joined entirely new companies and I've worked for them almost for a year and there's never met anyone in. Right. So this is a real challenge. So acknowledge those challenges, firstly, because that clears the air. And I think one next piece you can do is actually just ask people, how are you holding up? How is this working for you? What could we do as an organization and me as a leader in helping you sustain and Boucher your resilience. Then the next thing is really acceptance. I think part of this, as I personally don't think we're going back to last February, I think the future will be a hybrid of what we've learned on this journey. So if you think about acceptance is not surrendering to fate, it is saying sifting the reality and finding the points of control. What are the small points of control that I can influence and leverage then knowing those points of control, I can adapt and then act.

Gregory Favazza: 32:13

What would you say those points of control are?

Simon Trevarthen: 32:17

So I think it's about if you think about it, I mean, think about, well, the, cause this has been an opportunity and a negative two is what are the points of control? I think you can allow for space for people to communicate that anguish, that frustrations, that the chaos, but also the opportunities what's worked for them. I think the points of control in many companies are wrestling with this right now is how do we actually end up with hybrid models of work office work and remote work as opportunity points of control can also be around how you appear as a leader in your organization, working remotely. Do you have one-on-ones with people to check in about how they're doing so what are those points of SROs to again, to adjust behaviors, to build that resilience?

Gregory Favazza: 33:10

So what I'm gathering is. Not just people, organizations, everybody that has already developed a vision statement. It's almost, it is a refinement, a refining refining your vision statement to meet what's happening now, because I know people are still using the same one they created and thinking it still meets the situation

Simon Trevarthen: 33:38

when it doesn't. Yeah. I mean, I think vision statements can be very powerful if that powerful. I want to mean by that is there's an awful lot of vision statements out there, which lift look, look, the cookie cutter. We want to be the world's best XYZ. Yeah. And literally they're in the whole way on a sticker. Everybody walks by. No. So I think vision statements only matter if you've really, you know, digest, they've been digested into the values of an organization, how we act, how we make decisions and the w the way in which we treat people is an expression of our values. You can have two hospitals with equally qualified people, but one is a lousy hospital and one's an exceptional hospital. Is it the qualifications to make a difference maybe? Or is it how they treat their patients, their bedside manner and the values they hold? So I think the vision statement is powerful, but it has to be done. It has to kind of like, uh, be absorbed into the values. The other piece, I think, particularly this time, which is that timeliness is, and I've seen this a lot of work I've done with companies around strategy is they've shrunk their strategic horizon. They're not thinking five years out. They're thinking. The next six months, 12 months, 18 months that says planning horizons, because there's so many variables in, in that, in that world, it's almost to say five years, hence we don't even know what that's going to look like.

Gregory Favazza: 35:17

Well, okay, let's go into this. That's I've I hear too much about everybody trying to shoot for the five-year mark. Now I'm hearing that you should be shooting for 20 years as far as what, where do you want to end up? What is your ideal position that you want to be? How do you want this organization to be identify as what do you want? Your social capital? You want your financial, your technology. You want all of that for the next 20 years, but then you're saying next six months because of the variables, why is that better?

Simon Trevarthen: 35:53

So I'm not suggesting is better. I mean, you shouldn't have an idea of, let's say on a personal level where you want your life to do. But you have to roll back the carpet. And so much is up in the air at this time, this such volatility. I mean, when we go into this into COVID, most of us thought it would be a one month wonder. Yeah. And when now a year and a half in, and you know, it's a bit like cut children in the back of the, a station wagon. Are we there yet? Right. I'm not sure that anybody can say that it's another six months or 12 months. And so if you're working a business and you've got high volatility in prices, high volatility in your supply chains, high volatility in your customer base, high volatility and shifting customer needs high volatility in staffing, government regulation, could there be another lockdown closures, et cetera. Right. So there's so much volatility. That you actually need to think about 6, 12, 18 months as a kind of a horizon you've telescoped down your strategies to those kinds of parameters. One thing I would say though, is to have them in three buckets, there's always things say three things you must do. These are things that keep your lights on, that enable you to they're absolutely mission protocols, the musts, and then you should have two things maybe you would, uh, kind of should do the build future capabilities. And then one thing you would like to do, which will help you get past this 18 months and come out. The other end is a better company. So the muster shoulds and the likes help you stretch your kind of strategic framework beyond the mission criticals to actually building future capabilities.

Gregory Favazza: 37:54

So a priority oppressive.

Simon Trevarthen: 37:58

Probably, but it's also about often we get caught in the immediate without saying, well, how do we ensure that we are putting 20% of our time into future products and innovation and future capabilities to enable them.

Gregory Favazza: 38:15

So it's like Stephen Covey with, uh, the four boxes

Simon Trevarthen: 38:21

quadrants similar to that. Yes. Okay.

Gregory Favazza: 38:26

So then how can, can you put it in a formula that people can apply that's for an organization or

Simon Trevarthen: 38:35

for a person? Sure. 3, 2, 1, simple as that find three things you must do in the next three months must do two things you should. And one thing you would like to do, which will actually transform you as a person, as a professional in the next 12 to 18 months.

Gregory Favazza: 39:04

See, I, that's going to be hard to persuade. Like, I feel like I want you to persuade me to do that because I am the person that wants to refine myself better myself every day. If I'm not doing something, if I don't feel like I accomplished something today, I feel like I did nothing with my life. So you're telling me to do three in a 18 month

Simon Trevarthen: 39:26

span just for that, uh, three things you must do. Okay. So, um, you're going to do these consecutively, right? So you have three things you must do, and that could be around your health, right? And, and how you break that out is, is, um, fitness journey, nutrition, whatever you want to call hydration. The second must you might have is new income source. I must get new income sources or new job or those kinds of things. Another must might be, could be in terms of places to live or relationships. Those are musts. Yes, it should are things that might take six months to build. So is that an I should develop a new skill. I should rethink how I'm positioning myself on the market and actively do that. I should network networking is not going to happen immediately, but I should do it. The, the, the like to could be an entirely do new, different skill. It could be attending a college or getting in New York qualification. It could be getting a different entire skillset, but it's the like two which will be transformative.

Gregory Favazza: 40:38

So six things. Total three is consecutive daily application. And then to. Is how, how I go about that one.

Simon Trevarthen: 40:50

So I th I th I think the best way to conceptualize that is if you think about what can be done in say six months, that can begin building new capabilities, new capacities, learning something new, applying a new technology, learning a new application, whatever it may be a skill. And then the like is something which is gonna take a while to actually put it together. So what

Gregory Favazza: 41:20

I want to do just by hearing this is I want to, I want that one, the light to, to be the very thing that will be my transformation, but then the two will be the credentials or the, that I need to make that one. And then the three should be the very efforts that I'm applying that will get me those two to make that one company.

Simon Trevarthen: 41:46

Yeah. So let's say that you think having a think piece book is going to be transformational for your life. We can tie them all together and that's going to take approximately 12 to 18 months to actually happen. That's the like, right? What does the three must you must do in order to make that happen? Well, probably writing every day, probably maybe getting a writing coach or a group of people who can mentor you and edit you around your work. And it could be feedback from people. And it also could be, you know, it could be actually doing some real deep work in terms of improving your writing style, reading every day, learning from the greats, right? That's the immediate that the bit in the middle,

Gregory Favazza: 42:33

can we pause the middle? I want to, I want to address the medians. I want to relate really. Uh, responses to this statement, cause we all can get on the mic and we can say, you do this. Your life will be better. I think I agree. I've done it. I was that person that was nothing to doing something every day for five and a half years straight to now. I'm I have to get back to that very person that I was when I was in the military because I was forced to do it. And then I just was able to hone it from there. Life gets in the way, when you're a parent, when you're a full-time student, when you would just have an outside life, what if I can't make it consecutive? Then I feel like I fucked up and I need to start over. It's like, I, how do I know that doing? How do I know it's a delayed

Simon Trevarthen: 43:22

outcome? Beautiful question. The reality is life is messy and light. Some pimp, some people's lives are more complicated than others. And I think for, for anyone, if you have one of those ambitions, the question always is time. We will have the same number of days. I was in the day. So for me, if I'm going to have a fitness skull, I have found, unless I exercise before seven o'clock the whole day, w it'll never happen. Family happens. Life happens, those kinds of things. So then that that's a learning for me of going to the gym or whatever it may be before that window. So that means

Gregory Favazza: 44:02

there needs to be contextuals put in place before you go out and just say, I'm going to start reading this and this. I mean, one, you can't just start three things consecutively, if it's difficult, because one you're not going to, it's like a crash diet. You just try to just stop eating for, like, I'm not going to eat for two weeks. It's not going to work. And then you're going to overeat and then you're even in a worse place than you were two weeks ago. So then what questions do I need to ask myself so I can make sure that this is going to be. A successful transformation.

Simon Trevarthen: 44:39

So go back to when I said earlier, which is quality is a consistent application of a high standard and the key word is consistent. You don't grow, you know, the amazing body from one time at the gym, but the question is always, it's humble beginnings, right? Every time you go to the gym, you're making a deposit in the account. Sometimes you might don't do it as well. Sometimes it doesn't matter. You have to give yourself that slack, but it is, if you look at the, you know, the greatest writers, they had their own rhythm, they would wake up and they would write from five in the morning till eight o'clock and then get put aside and they found their rhythm to achieve their goals. So I think part of that is finding a rhythm and yes, there is many other things that can distract us and we live in a world of distress. But it is about protecting that time as someone who's creative, trying to change, protecting your time to enable you to accomplish those goals. I don't think you should kick yourself in the teeth because you missed a day. The best thing is to go the next day and make sure you go and get back on the holes, right? The reality is life can be complicated. It is fluid, but as much as you can corral time to enable you to achieve a goal. It's a penny that builds into a dollar and that's what those immediate pieces are. And it could be very humble. So if you, if your thing is to reach out to other writers and network, then it's, then you could set yourself a quota under reach out to 10 people this week to a day.

Gregory Favazza: 46:14

Right. So how do I appreciate that process?

Simon Trevarthen: 46:21

And what do you mean by pre.

Gregory Favazza: 46:26

I know once you start, I know how it works with the building a habit and developing yourself. Like for me, the very first day of starting something that I'm going to do consecutively and consistently, it it's a nail biter. I don't want to do it, but right after I do it, I'm satisfied and I can't wait to do it tomorrow. So how do we get people to just get them to jump off the ledge, but not in a suicidal

Simon Trevarthen: 46:59

way? Yeah. I think that the Ratzy is you can leap and jump and experience something new. We don't grow until we stretch. I think the real issue is not necessarily jumping in and trying. We all know that because when something is new, it's exciting and different and sparkles with enthusiasm and inspiration. The love. Is, you know, day two, three and four or month, two, three, and four, that's the grind piece. And I think it's important to understand that there is that excitement, that initial excitement, then you have the law because you're not, let's say you're not seeing the changes you wanted to see, but pushing through that dip enables you to come out the other side because there is that initial excitement. And if it's true of old change, personal professional organization, there's excitement, there's curiosity, you see initial gains, but then that's that low. What you know is going to happen. And that's where, you know, your stamina and enthusiasm resilience is critical. But then if you can get through that lull, it does become the habit that 90 days wonder, but it also, then you start seeing the results that you're trying to accomplish

Gregory Favazza: 48:16

now, for those that have started. That I know what we're sharing. Isn't new and people have tried this process and they have failed and they have tried again and they have failed. What can you tell them that will make them want to try again?

Simon Trevarthen: 48:33

Hmm. What's interesting how you frame that as they tried many times, but failed, maybe they're not found the correct way that really kept them at the activity. Yes, the right motivation. And it could be external. Um, accountability could be key for that. Having friends or family members who hold you accountable or a mentor or coach can be really helpful in that and those kinds of environments to give you that kind of external push. Listen, we've all gone to the gym and sat there and said, I don't feel like it today. And peer pressure can be a positive and a negative. So being in a group environment, a peer environment helps you succeed. Right. That's why learning. We talked about early about remote versus, uh, basically be in-person when you're in a peer environment, let's say a school or college, you do work because your peers are working to a certain standard. So pair is important. And that's why, if you wanted to become a writer, getting into a peer group of writers, it could be helpful learning their practices behind the scenes to help you improve.

Gregory Favazza: 49:43

And if we don't have access to that, cause again with, I want to relate it towards schooling, online schooling. We don't, we're not interacting with everybody as much as we could see inside a classroom versus outside the classroom. Now it's all based on our own intuition. Our own discipline to maintain was expected in order to pass how. Conjure up the ability to do it, even when my life

Simon Trevarthen: 50:17

is in chaos. It's a great question. You know what I don't think mentors or peers necessarily have to be beside you. You can look to, um, people from history and biographies and understand the inner story of how they became who they became. When we look at truly great people, I mean, this is true. We just had the Olympics. Right? What we're seeing is the person on the podium. What we're not seeing is that 20,000 hours of work they did in order to get the 10,000 hours of work they did to get to the podium. So I think unpacking the internal stories helps motivate you. Others have done it, and it can be that could be a source as a peer group and mental group that other people have achieved these goals.

Gregory Favazza: 51:09

Okay. I like where this. That's good. I like that.

Simon Trevarthen: 51:15

The only, the next side is a real simple exercise you can do is literally get a picture of a park bench, just print one off the internet and do a stick person. And what do you need to think about is, is draw a picture in like 30 seconds of someone you really, really admire from history. They can be alive or dead. It doesn't matter. Someone you really admire that you would love to have a conversation with on a park bench. And it doesn't matter what you're drawing. Because then the question is why, who did you pick and why? And people have picked, I've done this with people, Einstein because of, he was just a, an incredible mind. And he's thought about the world and galaxy and nuclear things, right? And then it could be Nelson Mandela because his resilience, after 20 years in prison, it could be modeling the king. It could be JFK and whoever you've chosen, write down why. And here's the interesting thing, why you chose that person and their attributes, because why you chose them as their attributes is at your reflection of what you believe are your values, something you wish to aspire to be. So you see yourself reflected in that individual. It doesn't mean you're Einstein, but there's certain attributes that you would like to incorporate into your life and discover or enrich. And it's an exercise really, to help you understand. Your values now. And the only thing I'm thinking I would say to that is values change over time. We are not static creatures, you know, as well as I do our entire body changes every cell and every seven years. But if the clothes don't fit you today, you can be the new tailor. Our values at 20 might be different at 30, 40 50, or whatever it may be. Or you could have a major, uh, event in your life, which means you have to rethink and readjust who you are and your values. So I think, think about tailoring it for today. Do that exercise. What are the attributes of those people that I truly admire that I would like to incorporate in my life today.

Gregory Favazza: 53:32

Okay. Tell me about the, the, to the skillsets that I need to develop that will help me make to the

Simon Trevarthen: 53:40

transformation. Jeff. And I think if, again, let's think about that. If it was a personal transformation, the second. And that's when I think you're really talking about learning. One of those kids must be around learning, learning something new, getting a more in depth knowledge, and it could be acquiring an in-depth knowledge. If you're into physical fitness, it could be learning about physical fitness and what it really means because the first time you do anything, you kind of stumbled through it, but you're finding a goals. It could be that if you're talking about writing a book, it could be maybe taking a creative writing course and really understanding how to write the next kind of skill building could be in terms of, let's say the book idea. How do I actually think about marketing books? How does the book industry really work? How does that work? And those are skills that might take six months to achieve. But they're not going to happen in an instant, but they are going to build up to something, a block of knowledge as it were. And if you're a company that could be new capabilities, you're learning something new, you're hiring new people with new capabilities to take your company online that could take six months. But, and so those things I think is more about the transformation that can happen by learning something new and building new capabilities and knowledge

Gregory Favazza: 55:00

I would, for me, I would use, I would say self exploration and communication. I mean, those are the two things that for, if somebody new is trying this, that's the two things that they should go for is they're trying to develop theirselves and transform themselves one. They need to know who they are, what they believe in, in order to do that. They have to go through everything about everything and the communication aspect. I mean, you're, you're not gonna be successful if you can't communicate both verbally and in writing.

Simon Trevarthen: 55:41

Totally true. I mean, think about that is the more meditative piece too. That can be a self-reflection you can start your journey today with some humble steps, but the thinking about who you are deeply that might take some time, why does therapy therapy? Isn't one, one session, one counseling session. It's a process. And so that middle piece is the process of becoming someone new and then the end,

Gregory Favazza: 56:09

once you that's the expected, that's the, that's the compound effect of all of your effort, right?

Simon Trevarthen: 56:19

To some degree it is. But again, I think, and this is true. I think of all lives is rarely, is it a precise GPS location? We all know. I mean, we've all gone past the wrong the street and it reroutes you. So I think it is the aspiration. It's the vision, but it's, it is something what I want to accomplish, but I bet you, if you asked any writer, the book they thought they were going to write and the book as it ended up is wildly different. Yes. So the aspirational, like to new capability, it probably is a positive, regardless because you've done all of those other things. But the clear piece here is that it's not a precise location on Tuesday 2023. I would have done X maybe, but maybe that you'll get rerouted on, on route and you'll find some really beautiful scenery on the way I like that.

Gregory Favazza: 57:26

Yeah, this is supposed to be a 15 minute and I felt the connection happening and I didn't really want to stop it. I just want to keep flowing it. So with you Simon, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Simon Trevarthen: 57:40

Sure. So I'm basically, I'm a speaker and I'm a consultant and advisor. What I do is help leaders and organizations help transform themselves. So innovation, creativity, and change. So I helped through coaching speaking, but also advice about how to actually basic personal professional and organizational change journeys.

Gregory Favazza: 58:07

So if I were to ask you, Hey, I need to scale my business from a startup to something huge. I have a big vision. I'm passionate, I'm driven. I will work my ass off every day. How do I monetize and scale?

Simon Trevarthen: 58:22

Good question. Beautiful question. Okay. Here's the key to thinking about that scale is it is not a linear path. We, there are kind of, you know, uh, levels of complexity. So when you think about that path, and this is often what companies have come, it's a big difference from going from 50 people to 150 people. And it's a different problem than going 150 to 500 people or 5,000 people. So what is your level of complexity in your, in your scaling? Those are the critical node points in terms of how you think to scale hiring your first five people or the first 50 people. The key one, I think in that scaling question, and this is really critical. It's 150. Why is it 150 people? If you just think in terms of people is because we know 150 people, you know, your neck. Beyond that people become roles, responsibilities, and somebody who works in HR. You think, I mean, I think you've got a background in the military and there's a reason why military, since the Romans have roughly the same size in terms of that structure as they go up. Yes. There's a reason why the Romans had centurions on Monday. Militaries have something of a similar kind of size ascend chairing would know every single Roman under them. And that's the tight bond, right? Then you've got the tune and the unit, right. Four or five people, whatever it may be. There's a reason why, because we know 150 people intimately know the names, know the experiences, a weaknesses as strengths. But once you get beyond that, it becomes as a leader you're operating. So now you're defaulting even more to the importance of culture and who we are matters more because when we're only 150 people, I know you, I trust you based on past experiences of it. My interactions with you when it's 5,000 people, I've know, 3000 people at a regiment size or a division size, I don't probably my interactions might be every couple of years with you. Therefore we default to the culture, not to our personal trust and relationships. So when you do that in the company experience, that pivot point is a past 150. That's when the culture can either become more bureaucratic or when you really need to important how you extend the culture out and actually imbibe those values that we spoke about earlier,

Gregory Favazza: 1:01:11

spot on, like, let's say.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:01:17

I mean, it's fascinating when you think about it, you know, all of these structures, it doesn't matter what the technology is. We know this from even human development, most villages, which by the way of most human history was in villages. Right? Why was that? Probably the very little crime is because everybody knows everybody. Yes. And if you did something, everybody in the community knew it. And that was probably the, what kept people in, in play in a more anonymous society. We default to other structures to give us that sense of odor and trust. Nobody, nobody has a contract in a visit village. Everybody has a contract.

Gregory Favazza: 1:02:07

I liked that. And that's another way of framing it with putting down these, these values, these, the, the identity that you want to illustrate to the, your employee is your workforce or to yourself. It's almost like a social contract that people can see and automatically taken for themselves. This is what he's doing, then that's what I need to do. That's something that's perceptively intuitively taken upon the individual that is trying to

Simon Trevarthen: 1:02:43

be influenced. Yeah. I mean, you know, people couldn't, people can spot, I think at the first line, like a muffin here, something like that. Um, so people can spot a life very, very quickly. If, if the leader talks about work-life balance and everybody's working 90 hours a week and they do two. Don't talk about work-life balance. It's affection, but people will work for 90 hours. If they believe passionately in the goal you're accomplishing, but like a candle, you can't burn it from both ends. A tank has to be refueled. So eventually people will burn out. You talked about the remote work. People are burning out emotionally as much as from the work itself, doing all the zoom parameters again, because a human connection and, and, uh, emotional connection is very difficult within the virtual world.

Gregory Favazza: 1:03:40

Also caveat with that, but I wanted to point something out that's I've noticed is with people who are doing remote work, they are taking less accountability in themselves. Before even starting work. When, what I mean by that is they're doing their work and their pajamas. Like, why aren't you waking up shaving? Why aren't you waking up brushing your teeth? Why are you hopped on the computer and the clothes you slept in the night before? Why is that? Okay. I feel like that's going to hinder them in their growth to receiving the values that I'm trying to pass down.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:04:18

I think it depends also in terms of how the work is perceived, right? Why is it certain professions? I mean, if I, if I understand what you think, what is it? Certain professions have uniforms, right? It's because when you put on the uniform, you're putting on the persona or the values of that organization, a police officer, a fireman, whatever it may be, you're putting them the values of the organization. And people speak to you as a member of the organization. Not as necessarily. So I think in some context, the uniform means something, right? It means a set of values. I think what you're talking about though is again, the fluidity around work, there is truth. The reality is there is lots and lots of you could say transactional or administrative work, which really you don't need oversight over. Only that it's being done and done effectively. I think this is the challenge. The reason why people would the nine to five model worked and still probably work so efficiently is people want to see you are doing work. So there is a ways of actually understanding whether people are doing their work without actually seeing them do the. I mean, if you think about most roles, probably 70% is administrative, maybe 20% is really value added work and 10% or less sometimes is actually creating new value, future value. Can you give me an

Gregory Favazza: 1:05:52

example of those rules that you're describing for those

Simon Trevarthen: 1:05:55

percentages? Sure. I mean, but think of like, most office work, a lot of it is it's moving paper along a chain. A lot of it is just like doing the things we always do. Okay. I mean, having been a recovering executive, I can tell you the meetings I've been to meetings about meetings, about meetings, about meetings, preparing for a meeting, preparing for a meeting, preparing for a meeting. I don't know. Finally, a board meeting that never happens. There's a loaf normous paper to just feed that. So again, when you think about, particularly in your thinking about innovation is how much time are we truly allowing us to think a future value, creating current value and actually doing administrivia? I think it was Deloitte, the big consulting firm that realize, and this is an example of this, that they were spending a fortune. I don't know. I can't remember the exact number, hundreds of millions of dollars doing performance reviews, because it was part of the policy that everybody had to have a performance review and had to be adjudicated. And it was how people got rewarded and benefits. And they realized they were spending a fortune both in time, effort and money doing performance reviews. And they flipped that on their head and said, I think it was three questions. Would you recommend this person for another project? How would you rate their performance? What value do they bring to the project? And so there's a way you can actually take some of that ministry trivia and find a better, more effective solution. That truly adds value.

Gregory Favazza: 1:07:44

Okay. Yeah. You you've hit home right here with this construct. I don't know where else to take it.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:07:58

I mean, here's just one way, I would say maybe bring these things together and maybe it goes back to something we mentioned at the very beginning, which is telling your story. Yes. That question. Who are you? It's the classic thing at a party who are you? Most people define themselves as a role, but, and most people don't like define themselves. As we said, there's this. A little bit more sophisticated people talk about their experience. Maybe they talk about a key experience. All I was to do is suggest is to shift that and talk about what drives you when someone says, you know, I'm personally driven by a, B and C. Interesting. And I believe that I give the greatest value to others. When I do a, B and C, what drives me? And when do I give the greatest value? And it's just a way of reframing your story and your transformation and its way of reframing, because let's be honest, great leaders know what they give to others, not what they take from others. We've all been in environments where there's leaders who take recognition for other people's work or efforts. All of those things, if you're a. Take her as a leader, probably a poor leader. You know what you give to others, latitude, autonomy, inspiration, motivation, dedication, clarity, whatever it is, you know, what you give to others, the unique contribution you give to others. If you can clarify that story, you have a better understanding of the unique contribution, that magic 2% you gift you give to an organization, your community, or even your family. Now,

Gregory Favazza: 1:09:51

for those that are currently doing that, how can they refine it?

Simon Trevarthen: 1:09:55

You know what? I think you refine it by refining it and write it down and say, do those words really speak to me today, today? Not yesterday. But today, does it really represent who I am today? Does it really represent my aspirations today? Because that is a moveable feast and you know, no, very similar to our examples earlier on the GPS. Right? And the rerouting. Yeah. The fact is life is about rerouting. It's not a highway. And then when things, the life is a highway is misguided. It's more like a series of country lanes without a map. So I think the key thing is the refinement is saying, do this, do the clothes fit me today?

Gregory Favazza: 1:10:51

No, that's, that's very good. I have a couple more questions before we get into this. What is some good advice that you can prescribe to somebody that wants to better themselves today? Right here. Now what are some acts and action steps that they can implement right now?

Simon Trevarthen: 1:11:13

Beautiful question. Um, I think be honest with yourself and what I mean by that is be clear about your failures. Don't be don't own your failures, but don't be bound by your failures. Being a, being a human means. You fail all the time. But the key thing is to be learned from your failures, write them down. What have I not succeeded in and why be honest with yourself? So conversation with yourself, be honest about your failures, but then what can I do to flip the coin and say, what can I do differently next time? If I'm wanting to transform myself on my nutrition, what can I do do think if you're going to that crash diet, it was probably because it was horrible food. You didn't like the food. So how can you eat? If the problem then is nice food but healthy food, how can you change that? So own your failures. Don't be bound by them. Flip them to the positive too. You can't eat a pizza by eating the entire pizza in one, go cut some slices, cut three slices. And if you really wanted to cut three slices of the pizza, maybe it's your mind mindset, your body, and something you want to learn. And then lastly, I'd say at a real humble thing is, you know, there's a great Chinese problem. You know, every great journey begins with a single step. Just do something today. Humble, right? Humble. We all know this. You know, the reality is you don't become a champion overnight, just go for a walk or do something small. That is just something that makes you feel buoyant. It's your enthusiasm, your motivation. You've done something and give yourself credit. I remember seeing this thing that someone actually, I thought it was brilliant and they were wanted to become fit. And literally they couldn't do a single pull-up not one. So they made themselves a plaque, right? Like a little, uh, you know, the kind of thing could print off a cheap printer. And they gave themselves a plaque when they did one. And they gave themselves a plaque when they did five. I kid you not. They gave themselves a plaque when they did five. And then they given them a of plaque when they did 10. And then they gave themselves a plaque when they did 25. And they gave themselves a plaque when they did 50. And I think they had one of a hundred, everybody laughs at the plaque for one, but how many people, men or women could do a hundred dollars. Probably not that many, but the point there is incremental success.

Gregory Favazza: 1:14:11

Okay. I like that. No, I think I can do 30. It's been a while though. I probably maybe can do 15 at this point, but when I was really refined is definitely, it was 30 plus for a hundred percent sure. I got to put that in there. Otherwise now I will. I look like the asshole because I'm laughing, but we're all, but you called it like it is that's. I like that. Uh, what is some bad advice

Simon Trevarthen: 1:14:34

to avoid, um, bad advice to avoid? Um, I think it's important to understand there are naysayers. There are critics and there are energy themes, and naysayers can be often your loved ones, your peer group, who are, who are actually trying to deflate your amps. They probably are trying to deflate your ambition because they're scared you'll get hurt, rejected. So there might be coming from a good place. Right. But they're actually just trying to protect you in some ways from disappointment or failure. So the interesting thing about naysayers is that if you demonstrate that you're actually making progress humble or huge, they can actually become your greatest fans. And naturally you like a train. You can pull them along to their own journeys. I think when it comes to critics, critics are, are a little bit different in the fact that they actually want to pull you down. And mostly it's a reflection of their own limitations being projected onto you because they can't do it. They won't do it. They want to stop you from doing it. And the reality is nobody paints a Michelangelo first. No one picks a Michelangelo first time, but we live in an ecosystem by throwing stones, particularly electronically is really easy. There's no cost. So I think you need to put on the body armor and immune yourself to critics, every great person who's ever accomplished any change has critics they're out there. And actually there are proof that you're actually making a difference. The more critics I think the people to really avoid is the energy things. There are people who were deliberately not trying to pull you down, but suck the energy out of you. And so I think anybody telling you to come across someone who is deliberately trying to deflate you and pull you down beyond just a, uh, a kind of a flicking critic, oh, that'll never work. You're useless, but someone who's deliberately trying to kind of almost sabotage you is someone to have. In your life, how do we identify those people? Hm. I think the nicest is pretty easy is, is ask people why they think that, and that may I know. And if you ask those kinds of dig down further, you'll realize in that coming from a good place, but they're trying to actually protect you from harm, danger or things. But then it's a question reinforcing them, you know, you know what? I need to do this to stretch myself. I need to do this to grow. And they're probably going to say, you know what, go for it. If, if, if it fails, it fails, but the reality is you can do it again. And again, to get you a goal. I think with critics, they are by nature, very negative. They're actually, you can look by the comments. It's extremely negative. They're trying to pull you down, say that you, you know, it's very negative based and you know, when you ask them, so what advice would you give. Very rarely are they problem solvers, right? I mean, you ask them, so what advice would you give me? And they would say, they'll have none. And that's a critic. So how could I improve this? How could I do this better? And they have not, no advice to give, I think with energy thieves, that can be quite toxic. And I just think they can be avoided by just understanding that often people have their own demons they're trying to work through. And really what they're expressing is their negativities, their own demons. And so I think the opportunity with next to people is know, you can help them if they're a loved one and they're dealing with their own demons. But I think with people who are truly negative, we've all worked in work environments where there are these people, right? The energy I call them the oxygen thieves. Right. They suck the oxygen out of a room. They're always negative. The, oh, is it will never work, you know, this kind of stuff. Right. The best corralled and put to the corner. Cause if, and honestly, if there y'all boss, which can be a real challenge, you might have to keep your change secret until it's mature enough to be released into the open-end. Um,

Gregory Favazza: 1:19:09

yeah, I had a boss like that and the way I did it was I would put out there my aspirations. It was a false aspiration when I'm working internally on something completely different. So when they would try to derail me, cause they always did, they would expect me to be going this route when I've been going this route. And at that point that's when I was able to surpass them. I mean, it was very, very

Simon Trevarthen: 1:19:38

helpful. And I think the key there is, there is such a thing as great feedback. And differentiating criticism from feedback is really important. If someone is knowledgeable and is helping you refine your approach, whatever you're trying to accomplish, that's a critical piece in your jigsaw puzzle of change. So I think there's a piece and it goes to that question I asked earlier. So what would your advice be? How could I improve this? And if they actually have something positive to add then to be open to that, that, that creative feedback, cause it will sharpen your saw and actually help you maybe get to the place quicker, be more effective or achieve you, achieve your goal

Gregory Favazza: 1:20:26

and a good book book for people that are listening is the art of war that goes more into depth with, uh, the feedback that Simon provided on energy thieves.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:20:38

Yeah, totally. I mean, we all know them. We've all come across them. I mean, if, if, and the interesting one, I'll just leave this as my final kind of point is if you've in the other, the opposite is the opposite is when those energy thieves those, no, I like to think of them as problem givers. There are people who love to give away problems, particularly if they, if they report to you and your staff, right? We've all had them and they come into your office and they basically regurgitate a problem. You know, you've seen how penguins feed their young. They go throw it up on their desk and they walk away giving you the problem to deal with. Right. They literally regurgitate the problem. And they're happy now because they've walked away. The flip of that is to say, is make them accountable for their own problem. So, John, you brought up this, what do you think the solution will be? Oh, you're the boss you're meant to solve the problems. I understand that, but what would your solution. And then do that three or four times. And invariably, they will come up with a solution. Particularly if you remain silent, they will come up with a solution. People don't like silence and then say, we'll try that out.

Gregory Favazza: 1:21:55

I like that. Simon, how can our listeners get in touch with you? They want to learn

Simon Trevarthen: 1:22:00

more. Yeah, the best way I'm like I'm Simon Trevarthen I'm on most social media says that, but the best way to get in touch with me is my website. It's um, elevate your greatness.com, which is where we talk about innovation, change and resilience.

Gregory Favazza: 1:22:18

So for those that want to seek you out, they want to know exactly what can you provide people? What would you tell.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:22:27

So basically my company, what it does, it does, uh, keynotes consultation and coaching around change, resiliency and transformation around innovation. How do you transform yourself, your profession and your organization to be more creative, more dynamic and agile.

Gregory Favazza: 1:22:46

I liked then already Simon that's all for today. I really do appreciate you coming on the show.

Simon Trevarthen: 1:22:52

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Intro/Outro: 1:22:56

You've been listening to your transformation station, rediscovering your true identity and purpose on this planet. We hope you enjoyed the show and we hope you've gotten some useful and practical information. In the meantime, connect with us on Facebook and Instagram at @FollowFavazza we'll be back soon until then. This is your transformation station signing off.